Hebrew Voices #118 – Trinity and the Christian God
In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Trinity and the Christian God, Nehemia Gordon hosts a conversation between Southern Baptist Brian Garcia and Christian unitarian Carlos Xavier, to get a better understanding of the Christian concept of the nature of God.
I look forward to reading your comments!
Related Verses
- Deuteronomy 6:4
- Genesis 1:2
- Genesis 1:26-27
- Isaiah 9:6-7
- Micah 5:2
- John 1:1
- Jeremiah 23:5-6
- Zechariah 11:12-13
- Zechariah 12:10
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- John 1:18
- Matthew 1:18
- John 14:5-9
- Isaiah 6:3
- John 12:41
- Hebrews 1:3
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- Psalm 45
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- Psalm 102
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Books Mentioned
- The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture: The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament by Bart D. Ehrman
- Jesus As God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus by Murray Harris
Audio TranscriptRead moreShow less
Hebrew Voices #118 - Trinity and the Christian God
You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.
Nehemia: No, no. I want to jump in here. He mentioned about seeing the glory, and it’s really interesting. In Judaism in the Middle Ages, there was a big dispute about what is the glory of God, and what’s called the “Shechina”, or what Christians will call “Shekinah Glory.” Is the Shechina God Himself, or is the Shechina an angel of God?
Benjamin Netanyahu: Le ma’an Zion lo ekhesheh, u’l’ma’an Yerushalayim lo eshkhot. (For Zion’s sake I will not be silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest. Isaiah 62:1)
Nehemia: Shalom, this is Nehemia Gordon with Hebrew Voices, and I am here today with two gentlemen who are going to engage in a conversation about the nature of the Christian God, whether that God is a Trinity or, I guess, a unity – I don’t know what the term is – or oneness. We have here author and Southern Baptist pastor Reverend Brian Garcia of Crossroads Church in Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, representing the Trinitarian position, and author and Christian Unitarian pastor Carlos Xavier, of Restoration Fellowship in Atlanta, Georgia, who’s representing the unitarian position, and that’s unitarian with a small “u”. Guys, shalom and welcome to the program.
Brian: Shalom.
Carlos: Thank you for having us.
Nehemia: This is kind of an unusual program, because I’m the Jew [laughing] and I’m having the two Christians engaging in a conversation - and I really hope it’s a conversation and not a debate - but engaging in a conversation about what is the nature of God according to the Christian understanding. I mean, this is an unusual thing. You know, in history there was this thing where Jews were forced into these debates - usually with Catholics, but sometimes with Protestants - and the Jew usually wanted nothing to do with the debate, because if he won the Jews could be persecuted. If he lost, well, they could be forced to convert to Catholicism, or Protestant Christianity. So, in a sense, the tables are turned. You’re now here on my program, but voluntarily. Nobody here is under duress.
Brian: Help!
Nehemia: [laughing] No one’s here under duress. You guys voluntarily came, and I appreciate you joining me to have this conversation. Over the years, I have people all the time come up to me and say, “Nehemia,” they say, “Nehemia, we’re believers in Yeshua and we keep the Torah. We follow the New Testament, but we’re struggling with the nature of God, vis-à-vis whether it’s a Trinity or one.” We’ll get to some of the ideas that are out there, because I’ll ask other people, “What’s your idea of who is Jesus, who is Yeshua to you?” And I’ll get all kinds of different answers, even from regular, mainstream Christians. Ideas that, there was a time they would be considered heretical, maybe even still today. Like Patripassianism is the most common one I hear almost all the time, or some form of Jesus being a created being.
So, this is an unusual format. I don’t think I’ve ever done three people in a program before, and I’ve definitely never done this sort of conversation before.
When people ask me this, I say, “Those are theological questions. I’m not a theologian. Go ask your pastor, rabbi or priest.” So, now we have two pastors to discuss this. [laughing] And I just want to say up front, I’m Jewish. I’m not a Trinitarian. So, in a way, maybe this is a little bit unfair, Brian.
Brian: It’s okay. I like the odds.
Nehemia: Okay, beautiful! Well, and maybe from your perspective, there’s only one of us here, right? I don’t know.
Brian: That’s right, yeah. Well, there’s definitely one with me.
Nehemia: Okay, there you go. But I’m going to try to be as fair as possible, and actually just let you guys have the conversation. Brian, I’m going to start with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, because you’re not the typical Southern Baptist… or maybe you are, I actually don’t know. You’re not what I think of as a typical Christian as far as your background, so tell us a little bit about yourself.
After we do these intros, guys, then I’m going to ask each of them to present their position of what they believe for five minutes, uninterrupted, and then we’ll just have a conversation. But let’s start with who you are, before we get to that.
Brian: Sure, well I appreciate you having us on, Nehemia. I met you a couple of years ago up when I was ministering in Canada. And my background is, I am a former Jehovah’s Witness. I was born and raised in a second-generation Jehovah’s Witness family, and so my default growing up was that of Arminianism - believing that Jesus Christ was inferior to the Father, that he was not equal to Yah, that he was in fact a created being. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique Christology. They believe that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel.
Nehemia: Sorry, Brian, was that Arminianism or Arianism?
Brian: Arianism, sorry, and Arminian, because they are Arminian, as well.
Nehemia: Okay, but tell us who Arias is.
Brian: So, Arias was a guy in the 2nd and 3rd century who believed that Jesus was not of the same substance as the Father. And so, this is kind of what brought upon the Council of Nicaea, was this debate within the Church - was Jesus of a similar substance, or was he of the same substance as the Father? And so, the Arian position, which is held on by modern-day Jehovah’s Witness, unitarians and the like, is that Jesus is not God, that he is not of the same substance as the Father. And so, my background is, of course, I defended it. I was actually one of the first individuals on the platform of YouTube defending the Jehovah Witness Christology back in 2007.
And so, when I was defending Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would debate Christians often, and it was during those debates and discussions that I began to open my mind a bit, and started to read the Scriptures for myself, and I found that the Christology of the Old and New Testament were very different from what I was being taught by the Watchtower Society. And so, long story short, I became a Christian. I surrendered my life over to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am born again. And from that, God has thrust my life into a lifestyle of ministry, where I’ve been blessed to be able to serve all across the world as a missionary, a Church planter and right now, as a pastor.
I’ve written a book on this subject called, Can I Get a Witness? How to Understand and Set Free the Jehovah’s Witnesses, obviously helping individuals understand the theology of the Watchtower, and also Christian theology, and how we can best have these types of conversations.
So, I really appreciate, Nehemia, you bringing us here to have this dialog, this conversation. I think it’ll be really productive.
Nehemia: You said the “Watchtower”. For those who don’t know – and I can’t say I know exactly, I’ve heard of it – what is that?
Brian: The Watchtower Society is the organization that dictates all the doctrine, standards and practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So, when you have a Jehovah’s Witness knock on your door, they’re typically carrying around magazines called The Watchtower and Awake! Those are written by the Watchtower Society. The Watchtower and Awake magazines are the most printed magazines in the entire world. As a matter of fact, they print more magazines per month than the entire Christian Church does combined in a year.
Nehemia: Wow. How many Jehovah’s Witnesses are there in the world?
Brian: There are over eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide, in over 235 countries.
Nehemia: Wow, so how do you explain, and I know this is off-topic a bit, but you’ve piqued my curiosity. How do you explain that eight million people produce more literature than… what is it, two billion Christians? That’s actually… wow.
Brian: It’s pretty remarkable, and the reason why is because again, Jehovah’s Witnesses are advents, are proselytizers. And so, they collectively preach more than two billion hours a year. And so, every member of the Jehovah Witness congregation and religion is expected to go out and preach the message, go door to door, stand on street corners, pass out literature and do Bible studies. Where unfortunately, in most Evangelical Christian circles, the person who does the most proselytizing would be the pastor or the minister.
But the Jehovah’s Witnesses have a unique view, which I actually think is correct, that every member of the congregation is a minister. And so, I as a Southern Baptist preacher, I believe the same thing, that every born-again Christian is a minister of the Gospel. But they have done so very effectively, and partially, it’s because of their view of salvation – which is kind of off-topic – but they believe that they have to do this in order to be saved, whereas the Christian believes in salvation by grace or faith in the Lord Jesus. And so, we’re not out there actively working for salvation like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other groups out there.
Nehemia: So, how did you go from debating, or essentially defending, being an apologist for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, to where your whole ministry – or maybe not the whole ministry – but you wrote a book about how the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong, I guess, mainly about the Trinity, or about other things too…
Brian: Yeah, there are a lot of other discussions in the book. But the main, it would have to deal with the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Trinity, of course. That’s the major contention that Jehovah’s Witnesses have. They are one of the largest unitarian groups, and I use the word “unitarian” lightly here in regard to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they are the largest movement that deny the deity of Christ within Christiandom, or Christian circles.
Nehemia: Let’s jump now to Carlos. Carlos, you describe yourself as unitarian, Christian unitarian with a small “u.” Were you raised a unitarian? How did you become a unitarian? Give us a little bit about your background.
Carlos: Right, so thank you, Nehemia, for having us, and Brian. I was born in Nicaragua, which is in central America. We left when I was four years old. My father was in the military, there was a civil war, as it happens a lot in those Third World countries, unfortunately, and I started to bounce around. So, I didn’t have any formative religious upbringing.
Coming from Nicaragua, which is Catholic land, right? Central America of the Spaniards back in the good old days, [laughing] the Spanish Empire days, colonized all those places, and enforced Catholicism. So, my mother was a sort of lukewarm, if you will, Catholic. My father was an army guy, and never really religious.
We bounced around in my youth, went from country to country, school to school. We finally landed in Australia, of all places - Sydney, Australia, to be exact. And that’s really where I grew up. I was 20 years there, from around the ‘80s to the 2000s. Again, I grew up agnostic, if you will. So obviously, if you look around, there is a Creator. There is design. Just look at your hand, you know, [laughing] it’s an incredible design.
So obviously, you know, you grow up not knowing what’s out there, but there is something out there. That lasted until I was 32, 32 years of age. And then, out of the blue, I fell into a deep depression. I don’t suffer medical depression, thank God. But suddenly, it was just a weird thing, you know, when something you’re not familiar with hits you. And that sort of led me to the Bible for the first time. I had never read the Bible. I had heard of Jesus through relatives who were religious, but to me, Jesus was like Zeus, like some kind of mythological character from history.
Now, I did like history, especially ancient history, in school. I took a lot of ancient history courses at college. So I started reading the Bible for the first time. I asked a family friend who was a pastor, and I said, “Where do I start? This is such a big book.” And he said, “Start in the Gospel of John,” of course, [laughing] not knowing at the time this whole debate, by the way.
So, I started reading, “In the beginning it was the word,” and so on. And very quickly, just by reading the Scriptures, you learned that there is a God. So for the agnostic it’s different, right? You first have to jump over the… There is a personal God hurdle, and then you get to Jesus. So, this God, this one God called the Father by the New Testament, Yahweh or Jehovah in the Old Testament, He had a son and his name is Jesus. And then you learn about what it means to be the Christ. It’s not a last name, you know, he’s it’s not the son of Joseph Christ and Mary Christ.
So, you learn about that whole background, the Jewish background, the ancient theories background, and so on. And I got very deep into it, to this day. So I did a lot of reading, and then eventually, you come to the Trinity. So I looked at the Trinity. I did not know any better at the time. I asked my relatives, and I didn’t know their backgrounds, theologically, and I just researched it for myself. That probably lasted around six months, and pretty quickly, when you read standard dictionaries, standard history books, standard commentaries, Biblical commentaries, you see that the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, is a later creation, 300 or 400 years later, depending on where.
Nehemia: Of course, Brian’s going to dispute that, but okay. [laughing]
Carlos: Well, sure. But it’s skating uphill, because the history books say what they say. I mean, there’s really… it’s a standard knowledge.
Nehemia: Wow, come on. The same history books say that the world was created in a big bang, and those same history books will say we evolved from apes.
Carlos: Okay.
Nehemia: And there are ways of reconciling that with the Tanakh, from my perspective. There are Jews who believe there was a big bang and that we evolved, but God guided it. There are different views on that, but I don’t know that you can cite the history books which are written by secular people and say, “Well, this proves theology.” History books don’t deal with theology. I know there’s the history of theology, right? We’re getting into all kinds of…
But anyway, you said that you looked at Jesus as Zeus, originally, Carlos. How did you go from that to what you believe now?
Carlos: I believed that Jesus was like a Zeus character.
Nehemia: Yeah, a mythological character who maybe never existed, did you believe?
Carlos: Right, that’s as an agnostic, that’s what you believe. But when you read the Bible…
Nehemia: I don’t know if that’s true. I think most agnostics probably believe that Jesus was crucified, died on a cross. Whether he was resurrected or not, I guess probably agnostics don’t believe that. But I don’t think agnostics usually think of him as Zeus, do they? I don’t know. I haven’t been an agnostic, so I don’t know.
Carlos: Well, I’m not here representing agnostics.
Nehemia: No, but I’m trying to understand your thought process - how you went from being agnostic to where you’re now a small “u” unitarian.
Carlos: Sure. So, what happened with me, in my experience, was, you start reading the Bible, and it’s a historical book. I mean, there’s a lot of history, “faith” as some put it. And you’d look into it – I did, anyway. I mean, did this guy really exist? Are characters like Paul and so on - did they historically exist? To me, history, to this day, is very important.
So, you know, you read a bunch of books, F.F. Bruce, and people who have done work on historicity, so-called, of Jesus and the Apostles, and the places, and the events and so on. And it’s pretty clear, you know, [laughing] that this guy did exist. The Christian movement wasn’t just some mythological creation. And obviously, the Jewish roots, if you will, of Christianity, are very strong. Obviously, so…
Nehemia: Carlos, did you ever believe in the Trinity during this six-month period?
Carlos: You know, good question. As I read more and more about the Trinity and the history of the Trinity, it just made it impossible, because when you read the creeds – and I’m sure Brian’s going to go into some creedal language here – so, when you talk about essence, and substance and hypostasis and all this stuff, it’s clearly post-New Testament things.
Nehemia: Hey, so I posted this thing on Facebook and I didn’t get a chance to read them all, there were 27 pages of comments. But one person made a really good comment, “The word ‘Bible’ doesn’t appear in the Bible, but you believe in the Bible.” So it’s true - Trinity doesn’t appear in the Bible. And look, I’m playing, in a sense, the advocate here… I don’t want to say the Devil’s advocate, right? [laughing]
I want to challenge both of you. So, the terminology might not have existed, but maybe the concepts did, right? Meaning, that’s what Brian’s going to argue. Brian, you’re not claiming the term “Trinity” appears in the New Testament, right?
Brian: The last time I checked, it’s not there.
Nehemia: Okay, it’s not there. Brian, could you just jump in? I want to give you a…
Carlos: Sorry, Nehemia. Just to be clear, I wasn’t arguing for our words or terms found in the Bible. I’m arguing for the teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity, yeah.
Nehemia: So, the teaching could be there, even though the terminology isn’t? Can we agree on…
Carlos: Sure.
Nehemia: Can we all agree on that?
Brian: Correct.
Carlos: Sure. I’m focused on the actual teaching as opposed to words or terms.
Nehemia: Okay. So, I’m going to give Brian an opportunity to share a little bit about his background a little bit more, because I want to give equal time.
Brian, how did you go from debating on the side of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and a small “u,” unitarian doctrine to now writing a book about the Trinity?
Brian: It’s a great question. You know, I became a Christian when I was a young man, and having been defending the Jehovah’s Witnesses, really entrenched in the theology, the history of teachings of the Witnesses, I started to see a lot of inconsistencies in the history, in the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And what it came down to, you know, I just want to read the Bible. Kind of like what Carlos was saying, I really appreciate Carlos’ heart, and how he’s sharing his testimony, his story. And he just wanted to read the Bible. He just wanted to know the God of the Bible, and that’s all I wanted, too.
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Comments
Having said that, I’m inclined to think of our Deut 6, One true God to be a very complex God of much more than more than 3 pegged parts. I read of “The” angel of Yehovah in two burning bushes, wrestling with Jacob, saving Hagar and Ishmael in the desert, walking with Abram toward Sodom, Emannu’El, Yehoshua, Son of God, Ruach HaKodesh, Holy Spirit manifested as flames of fire, various showings of God’s Shekhinah Glory, etc. etc. All true Glorious attributes of our One True God, Yehovah.
Personally, I consider the dwelling on a Trinity Doctrine, in any of it’s many renditions, to be unnecessary, and even a misdirection off God’s Path to us in our search for Him. (although, admittedly, no bad agenda here, but a sincere and legitimate attempt to understand the complexities of God by reverent God-fearing individuals; they could just spend their study time a little better); and as such have put it on the shelf for now until the Father brings it back into the forefront of my mind as He wills fit.
I think God’s Word as pure and literal as can be read and understood with a good “dose” of “trust” in His Word wins the day. Reliance on man-made apologetics and man-made doctrinal citations is a “red flag” for me that resulting analysis is misguided and potentially corrupt; I relegate to the bin without a lot more consideration. If I missed something important to my understanding and faith, I trust God to bring it up again in my future in a more positive way (vision or a multiple affirmations everywhere I turn in the near future.
My recommendation would be that God’s Word alone (ie: vetted underlying Hebrew manuscripts) is authority and truth. Don’t hang your hat on other man-made sources, regardless of their opinion of their authority and authorization. God’s Word is the only truth.
Wonderful discussion! Thank you Nehemia,
i would like to offer a clarity that i feel YHWH has given me to help us in this quest.
In John 1 where the “WORD” became flesh and the trinity position forces this to support their view, remember that the WORD was a spoken item and lived long before any writing ever existed. The Spirit did hover on the face of the deep in Genesis and the world was spoken into existence by the living WORD. The WORD was there and exists way before the advent of the Messiah we call Jesus the Christ of God.
There is no need in my heart or spirit that requires Jesus to be God in the flesh and no special spiritual function of validating the Trinity doctrine necessary.
God is love and He wants fellowship with us. We are His children as sons and daughters.
The messiah paid the price of our salvation by fulfilling all the law AS A MAN. Because Jesus did it as a man with the infilling of the Spirit of the living God then we can too.
I can do all things thru Christ and in Him we have and move and have our being.
Doctrines of man in their interpretations do not bring HIS truth as much as we mere men think.
I personally believe that God became “the Father” when He “beget” another being, out of Himself – His double, who was equal with Himself (absolutely divine). God knew, that He could not die, while at the same time He continued to uphold all things by His power. There had to be TWO of HIM. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a third divine person. I believe that God the Father IS “spirit.” I believe that the resurrected Yeshua was “made a life-giving spirit” (ICor 15:45). His divine power of omnipresence was returned to Him. Show me one verse that says we are to worship, love, thank, glorify, etc. the Spirit, and I will. Thirteen times, Paul greeted believers in the name of the Father and the Son. Did he forget the Spirit – thirteen times?
We abide in the Father and the Son. Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son.
John saw every being glorifying BOTH Father and Son. To bow before the one throne, is to bow before BOTH Father and Son. I don’t see a third divine person. Just my opinion.
“Matthew 24:36
King James Version
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
I just want to add one think, it is interesting how Baptists must always dumb on the Mormons. I think Brian is one of those exJehova’s like the exMormons that have too much hate in their hearts
I would like to disagree with both of them.
The Trinity is a false teaching but has merit only with one condition.
If Jesus says he is God then we must read that Yehovah and Yeshua has all the same attributes thus Yehovah of Old Testament Bible and Yeshua of New Testament is one being. But then the Godhead is also true that God the Father and Jesus are both Members of the Godhead and then the Holy Spirit is the mind or consciousness (vail) of God.
Lectures on Faith by the Prophet Joseph Smith jr gives a great explanation.
So Godhead is God the Father (Un named God) the Son (Yeshua) with the Holy Spirit being the mind of God
The trinity can only work if it is related to Yehovah being the pre-mortal Yeshua.
Yehovah is the Father because he created us, Yehovah as Yeshua or Yehoshua is the Son because of the flesh and He is the Holy Spirit because he was transformed into a Spirit after his resurrection.
But they are all one being, I am a Father to my children, a Son to my parents and a Husband to my wife, that is Trinity.
But Trinity is not God the Father and Yehovah (Yeshua) that is the 2 personages of the Godhead.
Nehemia I think it would be amazing if you can do such a program with someone from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Reformed Church of Christ.
I believe that Yehovah of the Old Testament is the Creator and that Yehovah is the Son of the Almighty.
For clarification, that is not what Brian said. When he was asked whether believing in the Trinity is necessary for “salvation” he pointed out that under Trinitarian theology Jesus/Yeshua is God while in unitiarian theology Jesus is not God. Those are two big differences in regard to the identification of Jesus. Yet he said he doesn’t know the answer for sure and he’ll leave that up to Yehovah. To that I say amen! (Note: also see Nehemia’s interview with A. J. Bernard which i know is at Facebook to see his take on this question.)
In regard to the idea that Scripture has been corrupted, as controversial to my Christian brothers and sisters that may be, I feel compelled to share what Scripture itself has to say about this issue… Through the prophet Jeremiah, we are cautioned to “beware of the LYING PEN of the scribes” (Jeremiah 8:8).
After living and hearing scripture all my 81 years it is concluded that YEHOVAH intentionally does not allow anyone to understand fully as He is but we are to love each other where we and they are till He returns!
When drawing from the non Hebraic translations and Greek only one gets a mess!
Modalism does that come from the NT where Gabriel says to Mary-call His name Emmanuel?
We never hear Him called that anymore anywhere in the NT??
Strange a direct command from God!
So is this where Marcion and Constantine and his mother intentionally create confusion in the NT and the Tannak via translators?
What if:
John 1 WORD is TORAH?
It was the only significant WORD the Jews had/have!
In the beginning was THE WORD not a WORD-TORAH
and the WORD, TIRAH, was with God-of course it’s HIs personality
and the WORD TORAH was God>>>>>
So if the worlds were formed by Him that would be the function of TORAH as an entity not just words on parchment?
What if way, path. light, lamp, any direction of life in our bible is TORAH ie:
Bring up a child in the ….way-TORAH…and when he is old he will not depart from it!
Closest thing we have is our Constitution and Bill of Rights which do not come with the same result as TORAH!
My Lord now here on earth and as Messiah my future, when My Father makes My enemies My footstool and I am King/God to all?
Perhaps a point of clarification of Sodom and Gomorrah What term about the two terms used referring to seemingly different Gods. Gods .
I have a list of 28 terms of the various names of YEHOVAH or as stated I revealed Myself to Abram differently than Moses. Perhaps that clarification would help in seeing a better understanding since the generic pagan term-God is replacing all the various names of YEHOVAH!
This issue is caused by Zoom, which “mirrors” the entire video on my side.
Interesting perspectives on the subject. I appreciate the texts being listed for further study. A side note if I may:
A personal request to turn the Hebrew writing around so it reads properly behind your head Nehemiah, especially as the Holy name is right above your head and reading it backwards feels disrespectful to me and distracting.
Thanks for your work!! I consider myself a Biblical. Christin Unitarian. May YHWH, Yehovah bless
The apostles didn’t teach that there are two completely different Jesus’s, and I defer to their authority. The church falls into apostasy when she begins to follow others above the founding apostles. Thanks for tipping me off to this guy,
The best person to answer your question is Brian Garcia.
According to him there are 2 completely different Jesus’s. And you must believe the same way he does in order to believe in the true Jesus.
I don’t understand why you are using the term “Christian God” as if Christians are
worshipping aother God other than the God of Abraham. Christians worship the same God as He is revealed in the Scriptures. We see all Three in the Tanakh; – God, His Holy Spirit and the Messiah. The word Trinity is from the Latin word, trinitas, which means a union of three. The concept of the Trinity is merely that the Three are unified.
God is one spirit, that’s why the Apostle Paul said, “God is one” Galatians 3:20.
If we have more than one spirit, then that is when we have jumped the fence into polytheism. God is one Spirit and He has a person, and in the scriptures His person is called soul (Isaiah 42:1, Jeremiah 6:8, 32:41, Leviticus 26:11, Psalm 11:5).
His person/soul directs the operations of His Holy Spirit. We see this very clearly in Psalm 104:30 – “You send forth Your Spirit, they are created.” The person wills and His Holy Spirit, which is distinct from God’s person, responds. Therefore we can see that God is constructed as two, soul and spirit, without being more than one.
In order for Jesus to take our sins and fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 53:10, His soul/person has to be a distinct begotten entity from God. Jesus’ soul/person is birthed or brought forth from God’s Spirit. Anything that is begotten or birthed must come from a preexisting substance, therefore Jesus is begotten and not made.God will not give HIs glory to another and that is why Jesus’ soul/person is the perfect image of God in character. Jesus’ soul is joined with God’s Holy Spirit, Isaiah 42:1. The Apostles recognized that Jesus’ Spirit is God’s Holy Spirit. God operates through His Holy Spirit in His Son who is His image (theophany) and always was. That’s why Abraham could have lunch with God and not be fried by His holiness (Genesis 18).Therefore all Three, God, His Holy Spirit and the Messiah are all distinct from each other, they can operate simultaneously and are unified by one Spirit which makes them one God. That is the Biblical Trinity.
I don’t think there was discussion of Isa 53:10-11 either – where Yehovah explains the testing that the messiah will have to go through to prove his worth. If Yeshua is God, why does he have to prove anything to himself?
This test was not about Yeshua proving himself to the world – it was about him proving himself to Yehovah – that is why Luke 22 speaks of two different wills. It was the will of Yehovah to put Yeshua through this testing. Yeshua didn’t like, didn’t want to do it, was entirely grieved to the point of sweating blood over it. If Yeshua was a manifestation of Yehovah, how does any of this testing, different wills and grief over this process make any sense?
10 yet it pleased Yehovah to crush him with illness,
to see if he would present himself as a guilt offering.
If he does, he will see his offspring;
and he will prolong his days;
and at his hand Yehovah’s desire
will be accomplished.
11 After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction.
“By his knowing [pain and sacrifice],
my righteous servant makes many righteous;
it is for their sins that he suffers.
Another key point from 1 Cor 15 is the concept of first-fruits. When something is a first fruit, it is the first of that crop of which it shares common origin – meaning that the first fruit has the same substance as the crop that it comes from.
Yeshua is referred to as the first-fruits of the resurrection that is promised to all mankind – so if Yeshua raising from the dead is the first fruit of the resurrection, then he shares in the same substance as the rest of mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:20 “But the fact is that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have died.:
I was surprised that Carlos didn’t bring up 1 Cor 15 even though he hinted at it. In 1 Cor 15 Paul lays out essentially the whole gospel and his understanding of the role of Yeshua. He calls Yeshua a man, a second Adam, not a second God as Carlos did say.
But Paul goes on to explain that everything was subjected to Yeshua by God except God himself. If Yeshua was God, of the same substance as the trinitarians claim, then why does Yeshua need anything granted to him? Wouldn’t he already have everything? And then why does Yeshua to submit himself to God if he is God? Does he submit himself to himself?
“But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. 28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him;”
There are many arguments that can be made directly from the scriptures without having to go to historical documents or textual criticism that were not made in this interview. Just for one, in Luke 22:42 Yeshua says, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, let not my will but yours be done.”
If God is one in substance, being, etc, why would He have more than one will? Why would Yeshua’s will be any different than the Father’s will if they are both manifestations of the same being?
… and it does not matter if the box is doctrinal or physical.
Amen Daniel,
Nobody puts Yehovah in a box.
(1 Kings 8:27)
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
Nehemia great program !! I wish you would have used John 6:4 ” Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was near”, as an example to Brian how a spurious text can and does change a set of beliefs down through the ages.
Yehovah in human flesh and called Yehoshua.
It might be a worthy pursuit to check on Dr. Skip Moen’s many discussions on this subject. Just one short quote follows:
“ …In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity was first mentioned by Tertullian in about 200AD and was not fully established in the Christian Church until the council of Nicaea is 325 AD.
We know that another Trinitarian expression found in 1 John 5:7 in the KJV is really an addition to the text in about 800 AD, first appearing in a treatise written by Priscillian in about 385 AD. Once incorporated into the text, it was treated as a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. But the truth is that John never wrote it… Understood.
There is much more solid and succinct evidence in Skip’s long history of attacking this subject with an open mind. Enjoy the study.
When HE is GOD THEE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, HE is YEHOVAH, when HE is YEHOVAH in the flesh, HE is YESHUA, John 4:24 says that YEHOVAH is Spirit, HOLY SPIRIT, be HOLY for HE is HOLY, THEY are all the same, but identified by who they are called so we know WHO we are talking about.
Suzerainty and vassal relationship clears up for me so much of this language that gets debated.
Yocanan, completely agreed.
The lenses that one puts on (by choice) determines the doctrine of preference.
That would best explain how 2 groups looking at the exact same scripture can see opposite views and both sound legitimate.
“Uncover mine eyes, and I behold the hidden things out of your Torah”
(Psalm 119:18)
Shalom.
As a former ‘trinity’ type Christian now trying to explain Hebraic roots of the faith, my ‘trinity’ friends have a three-cornered box they try to force God into, and if it don’t fit it gets tossed out of their paradigm – and that box becomes a dogmatic doctrine that severely limits their faith, particularly when trying to understand end-times prophecy.
Fabulous! The fable of the Trinity and its slipperiness was well exposed. It is not that a Trinitarian DeniesYehovah but rather that they refuse to speak to him and listen to his voice. The Unitarian can also be guilty of this fundamental Error but at least maintains that absolutely crucial distinction Yehovah States by his spirit and in his words written by those instructed by his spirit. The understanding of what Yehovah is doing is lost in this smokescreen argument established by the Trinitarian doctrine. When cornered, as Carlos does so well Trinitarian responds with a Credo and a clear threat which is ad hominem. It is this threat which was carried out by the Roman Catholic Church against all those Who would not bow down to its authority, being justified by their Creed To slaughter so-called heretics. As our Lord said: you will know them by their fruits! It would be interesting to know if history supports the slaughter of Trinitarian is by Unitarians! I would suspect that it is usually Trinitarian slaughtering other Trinitarian’s as well as anybody else Disagreed with their Creed .
Today they did beat each other, and there is no real conversation On this topic since Trinitarian polarise the discussion. The nature of Yehovah he is a lifelong conversation that each individual must have with Yehovah involved with Yeshua . As long as everyone allows everyone else to have that conversation without interference there can be no harm done, because Yehovah himself will set the record straight at the time he sets for the restoration of all things. Yehovah Will judge each man on his own merit not by any denominations credo and it is this fear of being dammed by Yehovah if one does not profess a certain credo which is the error of the Trinity as a doctrine for teaching.♥️♥️Yehovah ♥️Yeshua ♥️Humanity
yes, shalom
YeshaYahu 43:10,11 “You are My witnesses,” declares Yehovah, “And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no El formed, nor after Me there is none. “I, I am Yehovah, and besides Me there is no other savoir.
Yehohanan 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who loves Me. ( Who says hundreds of times “Guard My Torah”)
Yehohanan 8:54 “Yehoshua answered, “If I esteem Myself, My esteem is none at all. It is Father who esteems Me, of whom you say that He is your Elohim. 8:58 Yehoshua said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came to be , I am”
Did not Yehovah say He would never share His Esteem with another many times?
John 14:16 Helper stays with us, 14:17 I am coming to you. (Yehoshua), 14:23 We shall come to him…..(Yehovah and Yehoshua) Which one ?????
Yehoshua is the WORD of Yehovah?
I grew up a baptist with a strict adherence to the doctrine of a trinity until I did an exhaustive study on the subject that I share here with lots of scripture that you will need to copy and paste into a search engine:
sum of thy word Trinity: True or False?
oops, please do not publish, but I have found both “gerald schroeder” episodes, with the added zola levitt interviews. Thank you from the bottom of my wretched little heart, I had searched unsuccessfully on youtube for zola’s material, and was too cheap to buy it. Nevertheless, Schroeder has some amazing new material, and is a very much appreciated message, as tech discoveries continue to proliferate. I am wondering now if science will eventually discover that our prototype universe is entirely a gossamer web of the spirit of Yah’s will.
Learning, I hope, for now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face! Now we know in part. Yehovah give us patience.
I seem to remember a comment on one of Nehemia’s broadcasts, that the person who thoroughly understands his position, could take the opposing view and argue for it. I wonder if these men would attempt to do this?
In 2020 Hindsight, the definitions depend on what glasses you put on. Your own or YeHoVaH’s. Great God to even bother to explain His non human Ways in a Man’s 3 dimensions concepts. In Addiition, which empire Rome, UK, Ottoman, Far Eastern, USA or His Kingdom Owner is key to why we are in this Situation.
congratulations Nehemia, I see you have succeeded in “herding cats”! Now, when are you going to invite Gerald Schroeder on again? Nothing helps us ex-atheists like technical permission to believe the holy scriptures! I am prepping by reading several times all 4 of his books. Very reasonably priced at online used books. (thrift books)
Perhaps king David and Yahshua said it best in Ps82:6, “ani amarti, elohim atem, uv’ney elyon culcem…”. “I have said, you are elohim, and sons of the highest are you all…” Neither 3 nor 10, but Yah can create/form/make as many like minded helpers as are willing. (as best as this agnostic can understand it) Blessings to all, thanks for being neither atheists, pagans, nor muslims?
Why is it so important to believe in the trinity doctrine?
To what end does it matter?
The ancient Israelites would have scratched their heads at such a concept.
When a doctrine boxes itself into a corner the only way out is to use the terms “complex” and “mystery” ……. nobody puts Yehovah in a box.
In Western understanding…could it be said that YHVH is the NOUN…. and the ADJECTIVES (describing the noun….or the function of the NOUN (or ADVERBS) could be–
“Yeshua, My Salvation, Ruach Ha Chodesh…and Lord of Hosts, Captain of the Armies of God, our Provider, our Healer, our Comforter, El Roi”…. etc?
Hi to through in another ball…..my belief is that Yeshua His God….Yeshua is the embodiment of YeHoVaH…. He is The Light….He is The embodiment of The Woord….The Torah…..The Shepard…..the Messiah…..he is everything that is visible…..He is YeHoVaH in the flesh. YeHoVaH is Echad…..The Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
Complex and beautiful
Great conversation thankyou
Judith
How can both Brian and Carlos be correct?
Or are they both wrong?
Or are they both still learning and willing to accept change?
Very sorry… I meant “first word in the New Testament.” I tried to correct it. My apologies.
The word “Bible” is the first word in the New Testament. It’s the first word in Matthew, in the Greek.
17:35 The word “Bible” is the first word in the Bible. It’s the first word of Matthew, in the Greek.
Often when the Messenger of YHVH appears visibly to men, they are afraid, specifically citing Ex 33:20 as the REASON for being afraid…or the text itself will reference it.
Exodus 24:11
Genesis 32:30 When Yoseph’s sons are blessed, this angel is invoked as Israel’s Redeemer (How many Redeemers of Israel are there? One.)
Judges 6:22
Judges 13:22
Judges 13:18
And the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” ‘Pele’ is Aleph backwards.
Manoah’s wife gives the reason for why there is an exception to be made for seeing the face of God, yet living:
“But his wife said to him, “If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a GRAIN OFFERING at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these.”
The house of Joseph is the GRAIN OFFERING of Isaiah 66:20!
“Joseph” gathered GRAIN (seed) as ***the Sand of the seashore***!
🙂
Fascinating topic and discussion! I was raised Catholic, at 16 decided I was agnostic- “not knowing”, I didn’t know what to believe. At 19 went on a pilgrimage to find my “guru”, and found him in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke! I still don’t know what to think of the Trinity, but I know God, YHVH, loves me and somehow represents himself to me through Yeshua. It’s a mystery!
The biggest element that should be mentioned in this conversation is what Paul refers to as the Mystery of the Gospel. The mystery is, how does God return the the northern kindom (The House of Joseph) after they have been divorced and gone on to have ‘many husbands’ (Baalim)?
This is a mystery because of Deut 34:1-4 (“I speak to those who know the Law”). If the woman returns to her original husband it is an abomination.
The ORIGINAL HUSBAND had to die in order to release the House of Israel from the Law of Divorce (Deut 24:1-4).
He came only for THOSE lost sheep, and he came so that they would have LIFE.
The dry bone LIVING is the HOUSE of isreal returning to Torah observance from amoung the nations to join with Yehudah (Ezekiel 37).
Judah did not RECOGNIZE Yoseph
When Judah DID recognize Yoseph, they were made afraid by his FACE (metatron/messenger of YHVH/the Son of Yoseph
Moses is who brought those bones OUT OF EGYPT (slavery to the great dragon).
Nehemia…what is you opinion on Ben Burton’s argument that Yeshua is the Messenger (Angel) of YHVH? Do you believe Christian debate on the trinity has morphed out of a Hebrew understanding of the relationship between YHVH and the Redeemer of Israel invoked in the blessing of the Sons of Yoseph?
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