Hebrew Voices #109 – Does John 6:4 Belong in the New Testament – PART 1 of 4

In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Does John 6:4 Belong in the New Testament - PART 1 of 4, we examine the controversy about the Gospel of John which has raged for nearly 2,000 years, as we begin a 4-part series to solve a textual conundrum using technology John could not have imagined and draw on resources unavailable even a few years ago.

I look forward to reading your comments!


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65 thoughts on “Hebrew Voices #109 – Does John 6:4 Belong in the New Testament – PART 1 of 4

  1. Question….you say …The probleem was entering the synagoge …….I read that the question, discussion was …. if it was possible or not to be saved without cirumcission in acts 15……..?
    I think you displace the core of the discussion, no ?

  2. Absolutely eye opening! So grateful for your research and explanations! Looking forward to the next few parts!

  3. Gotta Love N.G. because he’s brave enough to pose the tough questions, and these two verses in N.T. are doozeys! Is the Torah applicable or not? “Well, God divorced Israel, didn’t He?” is the standard Christian response. A good grasp of the Prophets is essential to determine the difference between Israel and Judah – the two Kingdoms after they split from combined Israel – or is the prophet referring to a millennial rule of recombined twelve tribes, or a single kingdom before the split? Or simply calling Jacob by a new name? Let’s just take a look at Hosea, for example (better use the original Hebrew text) ; not far into the 2nd chapter it becomes clear which one YHVH ‘divorced’ and which one He would never ‘divorce’. Don’t take my word for it, and don’t trust some well meaning preacher – rather work it out for yourself.

    • The natural man is at enmity with the Law. When the Law is ‘written on the inward parts’, a yearning to return to the master and His instructions takes place. To be ‘grafted in’ requires Torah observance. It has taken me decades to get this far, and over the doctrines and dogma of senseless churchianity. I thank N.G., M.R. and K.J. for the Torah Pearls, etc. to open my eyes and read His Word in proper understanding.

      • We have to be grafted in by faith in the atonemnet first, that;s the only way we can be grafted in. Then after we have been joined in this way then the Holy Spirit drives us into God’s word. You can’t put the cart before the horse, it doesn’t work that way. When someone is baptized with the Holy Spirit, that’s what happens, He directs us into God’s word, but you have to have the spirit first, and the only way you can get the Holy Spirit is through faith in the Messiah Jesus’ death and resurrection. That’s when we recive the circumcision of the heart. We have to keep this commandment, “Abide in the Vine” (John 15) or we cannot do anything without being joined to the Lord as He said.

      • Micheal Michael, you just had to go and open this can of worms now didn’t you?
        Ha ha ha ?. Well God bless you sir!
        The truth matters and God is all about truth.

        I remember hearing about this issue back in the late 80’s. Main stream Christianity has a way of silencing anyone who doesn’t hold to their doctrines.

        I looked on the internet and found those who slander Micheal Rood but, I didn’t find Micheal Rood slandering anyone.
        I think that kind of speaks for itself.

        I’m glad you guys are addressing these issues and I’m looking forward to the other 3 parts.

        I have spent my life looking for the truth and it always matters even if it doesn’t have anything to do with salvation.

        The Apostle Saul said there would be a great falling away from the churches in the very last days and then the lawless one would be revealed. I think the truth coming out will be the cause of that.

        In those days Yehovah will pour out his Spirit on all flesh! Now what will that look like? Dogs and cats with the Holy Spirit?
        Follow me menoew! Maybe a cat would talk and lead someone to food or safety?
        Hey, I’m just saying…..

        Keep up the good work guys!
        I’m always looking for a revelation.
        May Yehovah be with you, Shalom.

  4. Deborah: It’s not the amount of years studying Scripture that qualifies as insight, it’s the spirit that opens the eyes and ears of his chosen and that has no time frame.

    • Exactly. We program ourselves with the word of God, and the Holy Spirit coordinates and reveals scripture. God has inserted clues to Messiah’s idenity throughout HIs word and the Spirit connects the dots so to speak. But one has to be really familiar with all of the scripture for that Holy Spirit programming to work. He can’t bring to mind scriptures that you haven’t inserted into your brain.

  5. I am so very glad that you (and John, and T-Bone) have decided to tackle 
    this issue.

    In “The Jonah Code”, Michael Rood discussed mostly one particular text
    fragment along with some references to Eusebius, etc. 

    Later, in his “The Chronological Gospels”, manuscript version, 4.5 pages 
    of introduction are devoted to John 6:4 and the larger-scope question of 
    the length of Yeshua’s ministry in Israel.  Most of that material is internal 
    evidence from scripture, along with common sense logic.  There is a 
    paragraph which mentions Clement of Alexandria, Tertulliah, Origen, 
    Lactanius, etc. and the chronology given by the RCC’s Catholic 
    Encyclopedia.

    Some (e.g. Tim Hegg, as expected) ridiculed Michael’s teaching re. John 6:4 .
    Hegg based his objection on the idea that the only supposed evidence for 
    Michael’s position is a tiny number of late manuscript fragments and therefore 
    the majority (of manuscripts) should rule. 

    We know, however, that errors can often propagate wildly over time. Even 
    a scintilla of evidence that there is an error of this magnitude in our texts 
    seems to me to demand thorough investigation.

    About a year ago, in early 2019, I stumbled upon a book by Professor 
    Arne Strand from the University of Oslo entitled “The Timetable of 
    Jesus Christ”.  Strand includes in the book a lot of his own largely 
    traditional Christian eschatology, but it is worth powering through the 
    book anyway because Strand’s research, documentation, and reasoning 
    regarding the duration of Yeshua’s ministry (and the John 6:4 question, 
    in particular), is outstanding.

    I’ve not seen any indication in anything published by Michael Rood or 
    by Professor Strand that these two have ever met, talked, collaborated,
    or studied each other’s work. 

  6. Nehemia, I’d be interested to know what your thoughts on David W. Daniels book about evidence that the Codex Sinaiticus was written by Constatine Simonides. It has bearing on whether you should use it as evidence that John 6:4 should be included.

  7. Can someone please clue me in on the identity of John, the man in the center of the panel? His last name is not given in the blurb of this post; in fact the “we” is not specifically defined. MR I recognize, and Nehemia ofc (that should be obvious!!) but I would like to know more about John and his scholarship. Thank you!

    • It sounded like Nehemia said “John Larroquette”. That may be correct, although this John is not the actor Larroquette (who is 72 years old).

  8. Regarding the insertion of John 6:4 into the text, if we look at the overall context, we can see that from the time period of the Passover which was approaching to the fall and the feast of Tabernacles, Jesus had to withdraw for this season because the people wanted to make Him king (v 15) so He would not have been able to keep the Passover at that time, He had to leave and He could not “walk in Jewry” also at this time because the Jews wanted to kill Him (7:1).

      • It might behoove you to actually read the text. It does not say He did anything in secret, He had to withdraw from certain areas and people in order to continue His ministry.

        • Hi Deborah: Sorry you think I’m not ethical. But I believe you’re reading into the Scripture. Deut 4:2; Rev 22:18-9 Don’t add additional words with speculation into what you think happened nor subtract what is already given. I always try to stick with this commandment. I believe that’s what the Christian Pharisees have done all along throughout the ages – add and subtract. That’s what makes everything complicated and people get confused and then start to argue over their doctrine. Deut 29:29 the secret things belong to God. Hope this explains my position.

          • I just read the scriptures describing what happened bewteen the mention of the Passover and the feast of the Tabernacles. The people wanted to make Jesus King (verse 15) and the Jews wanted to kill him (7:1) so He had to withdraw from those areas. That’s what it says and I’m not reading anything into it at all. I take the Scriptures at face value and keep it simple.

        • Deborah: I can see why people get disgusted and don’t respect Christianity. As you reference: Rev. 22:3 it means: There will be no more curse referring to Mt Ebal which contained the curses. The two mountains were there for choice if God’s people obeyed his commandments they would choose blessings. If not, they would choose to be cursed.

          People get curses individually by choice. It has nothing to do with the ground curse. You have to distinguish the difference.

          Also you refer to Adam/Eve fig covering. Learn the parable of the fig tree. You’re taking words out of context and you assume together that they mean the same point.
          I believe you complicate what Christ taught. Your ego is heavily involved and I see this with “Christians” by their doctrinal absolutism. I believe the written Word and I have studied it – don’t know it all – but what I have studied I understand as only the spirit can reveal. I refuse to argue about God’s Word that I know is true. That doesn’t mean I disagree with some of what you’ve admitted even if in a condescending manner. To pontificate with your confused knowledge is regretful. Almighty God requested his child to have a contrite spirit and a humble heart as the divine counsel instructed Job. That is what God requires even in the OC. That is the only way anyone will have the truth revealed to them. I don’t see that at all in a host of “Christians” but only a lofty, controlling spirit of weaponized dissent.

          • I appreciate your feedback dear, but you need to restrain yourself from judging me, that is sin. My perspective is coming from forty years of study, with a particular emphasis on typology.
            If you look at the Eden scenario carefully, you can see very clearly that man’s attempts to cover themselves with leaves is a failure. Man cannot cover his own sin, it has to be done by an act of God, a sacrifice He makes which is the obvious point of the story. From that point on the narrative continues to its fulfillment by Jesus’ sacrifice.
            Isaiah must have had this scene in mind when he said all our righteousness is as filthy rages and they fade as a leaf.
            As far is the curse in concerned, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe you are reading things into the simple text.There’s a reason for all these earthquake’s and floods. The curse is aggravated by man’s sin and until there is repentance it’s only going to get worse as the Bible warns us.

    • If He didn’t keep Pesach, then He can’t be the Messiah(and I wouldn’t keep capitalizing ‘He’). The True Messiah has to keep the 3 Pilgrimage Feasts every year by actually going up to the Temple Mount in participation.

      • Jesus has to be the true Messiah. According to the prophet Daniel, in chapter nine, there is an Anointed One killed before Jerusalem is destroyed which happened in 70AD.Jesus was killed before that destruction. Then after that all we get is the “Prince that is to come” from the people who destroyed the city. One of the manuscripts says he arrives on the wings of horrors. You correlate this with Daniel eleven which is in two parts, the first is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes,a foreshaow of the false messiah, then there is a couple of what I call bridge scriptures inserted describing the exploits of God’s people which transitions us to the time of the “Prince that is to come” and we can see he is making everyone miserable, instigating the time of Jacob’s trouble up to the last judgment. We correlate this with Zechariah 14 and we see Jesus coming back to destroy him and instigate the prophesied time of peace. There is no other scenario supported by God’s word. We also have to understand that the messiah can’t be a mere man, because that time of peace would only be as long as a man’s life time. David is a similitude of the messiah who will rule forever Ezekiel 37:25. This is one reason why Jesus had to come first to die, because when He returns He will have His resurrected body and cannot die. When we look at Zechariah 14, we see this One who returns and has the supernatural power to split the mount of Olives is referred to as God.

  9. Great teaching. This is just one of many discrepancies we find in nt.
    Father, open our eyes and ears to see and hear Your absolute truth. Hallelujah!

  10. The information from the Museum of the Bible about the KJV’s “150 years of revision” is technically correct but I think it is overstated in the short reference given here to the MotB’s KJV exhibit.

    I do not subscribe to the absolute inerrancy of any Bible that I can put my hands (or eyes) on. It is said that every translator is a liar, and there are certainly translation errors we can point to in KJV, NIV, etc. But as for revisions, and by that I mean revisions that change the real meaning of the text (and which weren’t typos), those are few and far between. One reason, and I suspect the main one, is that such revisions reduce confidence in the work overall and no author or editor wants to do that.

    The articles referenced below include an excerpt from a book, but it is a book which I have not read. Therefore I cannot say anything about the rest of the book. But this section, which is written by a serious (rabid?) proponent of the KJV, does point out good information about the history of the “revisions”. The second reference is a letter to and response by an author of an influential Bible-focused web site, on this topic. All of the material is illuminating w.r.t. the scope and nature of changes to Bible texts.

    Use your favorite web search tool to look for “chick information king james revised since 1611”.
    Then also search for “Changes to the KJV since 1611: An Illustration”.

  11. I think you guys are missing the point on some of this. In Jeremiah’s prophecy of the new covenant, God says that He would put His law in the heart, Jeremiah (31:31-33). This implanting of the law in the heart is achieved when the Holy Spirit is released into the heart of a believer in Yeshua. When the Holy Spirit is in the heart of the believer the believer is guided by the Spirit of God in Him and the result of this relationship causes a believer to naturally walk in God’s moral law. If we fail through human weakness, we are restored through repentance. What God is concerned with most is the new creature, a transformed life which the law was never capable of doing, it must be a work of the Holy Spirit. To witness a genuine outpouring of the Holy Spirit today visit holyspirit.tv

    • God also said, he expected his people to study the scriptures in order to know him. Many “religions” think they know Christ yet they have different interpretations of who exactly he is. He said, he would reject those who thought they knew him when they went about to invent their own interpretations of do-goodisms. He said, you have used my name and made up you’re own interpretation. Therefore, depart from me, I never knew you. You didn’t consider my instructions. He is saying they never bothered to find out who he really is. This is a serious matter. That was the major fault of the Pharisees. The could not connect the dots. They had the oracles but didn’t understand them.

      Yes, the Holy Spirit is important as it leads into all truth. One must know God as Job was instructed to know him but not from man’s viewpoint but only from God’s Word. Those that truly know God are the wisest. Wisdom is justified by her children. I have no problem with people trying to “study the Scriptures” God required it. He did not say you have to be a genius with only one right answer. It takes thought and effort to find him as he said in Jer. 29:13. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. How do you seek him, through his Word That is a promise I don’t think any rationale person could refuse.

      Do not take my name in vain. Do not misquote me or mis represent me in any way. You have been given the instructions. Therefore, do so as I command. Everyone will have to answer for themselves before God. If the findings are of truth, they will know it confidently. They have been given that tool to comprehend it via the Holy Spirit.

      I salute these men, Nehemia, John, MR for their efforts in trying to get to the bottom of what God is saying. You’re on your own before God. This is a spiritual endeavor.

      • I believe that the Holy Spirit leads us to study the scriptures and He also gives us the meaning in the Light of the New Covenant.

        • The New Covenant is a composite of all the Old Covenants. Only difference is God would write his Word on their hearts. Christ said he wasn’t changing any laws. Law would remain until all is fulfilled, All the old Covenants are still valid.

          Covenant bet God/Adam – man/woman, woman childbirth, predicted first coming/still with us;

          Noah/rainbow/ground no longer cursed/ still with us;

          Abram/father of all families/personal covenant with Jews circumcision/land only, still with us;

          Moses/10 Commandments/ sacrificial system resulting in broken covenant fulfilled, bread wine covenant replaces sacrificial covenant/still with us;

          Davidic Kingdom/Christ will rule forever on throne of his Father David/still with us

          New covenant is all of these only exception is written on hearts. This is his Word to be understood through studying all Scripture.

          Christ told Pharisees if you don’t know or believe Moses you don’t know me. Christ referenced Genesis/Isaiah/Daniel/Jeremiah, etc.

          Holy Spirit is active only if believer follows Christ’s commandments. Love God, love neighbor covers entire law of God’s covenants from Genesis onward. 1John said check the spirits they are not all of God. Many teachings say that Holy Spirit is coupled with Grace for all. That is conditional. I believe Word has to be understood with meaning for the entire Word of God and what he stood for. The Pharisees taught the Oral Law was preeminent to written law. I see it as the Christian Pharisees are doing the same.

          • The New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant that actually contained the prophecies, typologies and foreshadows of the New. The New Covenant made in Jesus’ blood enables us to have eternal life, something the Old Covenant could not provide. It could not remove sin. The Holy Spirit is always active in a true believer and is always working to conform us into the image of Jesus and enables us to keep His word.If we are allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us, we will fulfill the written law as God intended without the bondage of legalism. The ground however, is still cursed, hence the earthquakes and other disasters. That curse will not be broken until the New Heaven and earth. God’s promise to Noah is that He would not destroy the earth again by water. Isaiah prophesied that it would be destroyed someday by fire. All this I suspect is to keep us humble and focus our gaze upon God’s kingdom and not this temporal one of shaking ground.

      • All NT/Yeshua Believers take note: additional evidence in the NT for post-Ressurection Torah-keeping:
        2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine….
        I would think doctrine includes things such as Feast days, dietary laws, etc. And all must agree at the time Paul wrote this there was only one set of Scriptures, the OT.
        Also James 1:21-22…receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Be doers of the word and not hearers only……
        So it is not just the body sacrifice of Yeshua that saves us, but the implantation of the word, in the heart, to the point that we are doing it, performing it faithfullly all the time, that saves us. Again this was written when the OT was the only word that James could be referring to, and in a post-Resurrection timeframe.

        • We are saved by the atonement, and if we are saved the Spirit of God works in us to change us into the people God wants us to be formed in the image of His Son. When we are filled with the fruits of the Spirit,- love, joy, peace, etc, against these things there is no law- Galatians 5:23; which means the purpose of the law is fulfilled in us. At the same time we use the law as our guide in righteousness, for the law is written for our health and welfare, but it is never for our justification. When we stand at the judgment seat of Christ, He is only looking at how we served the least of these.Matthew 25:32-46. What gains our reward is selflessness, in which Jesus is the ultimate example.

    • I think this prophecy gets misquoted, misinterpreted, and misapplied almost as much as Jeremiah 29:11 .

      Jeremiah’s full statement here includes the immediate context of the next 3 verses (34-36). To paraphrase (because I already wrote one long comment here 🙂 ), “There will come a day when it will no longer be necessary for one to teach another. I will have placed my instruction into their hearts where it will not be forgotten.”

      More context is given in ch. 33 – the messiah (Branch) will execute righteousness and judgement on the earth.

      • Jeremiah’s prophecy covers the instigation of the New Covenat in the Messiah Jesus which continues to it’s final revelation in Zechariah 14 when the Messiah reurns and fulfills the remainder of Jeremiah’s prophecy when no one will need to have the gospel preached because Messiah has returned.

          • You have to read it in conjunction with 9:11, 15 which defines it. God is saying that He won’t curse the earth with a flood again. The ground is still cursed, man still has to till the soil for his bread and we still have thorns and briers Genesis 3:17,18.
            The curse is gone Rev. 22:3 in the new heaven and earth after the earth is destroyed by fire Isaiah 65:17, Rev. 20:11,21:1, II Peter 3:10-11.

    • Having the Spirit is not enough. Rom 8:14 Those who are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Having it poured out on you and available to you, and actually listening, heeding, striving to follow its advice, are two different things. The latter is what matters most.

      • Absolutely right. Those who are genuine disciples will follow the Spirit wherever He leads. They are not pew sitters!

    • To have the Law ” written on one’s heart” is a euphemism which is to say ” to know it by heart “. But in the discussion, John is correct to point out that the commandments and will of YHVH is not obscure, rather they are in plain words. The seriously important part of this discussion is regarding the additional words inserted in Acts 21:25 ” and gentiles shall do no such thing”, i.e. the Law of Moses – that would create a new religion. (Forget all the theological gymnastics one could manage out of the Pauline epistles, verse 25 is plainly supporting or negating the Torah!) Choose this day whom you will serve – a Greek invention or a Hebrew Messiah. I don’t think the Law is impossible to keep, as there is always a provision when one falls short. We have a better High Priest than the Aaronic priests – we take it to Yeshuah. In the book of Luke, Zechariah was found faultless in every way in the eyes of YHVH. Why? because he atoned for any mistakes as prescribed by Torah. The Law that is impossible to keep is the Oral Torah of the Pharisees.

      • The Gentiles were encouraged to read the law and the prophets for “instructions in righteousness” II Timothy 3:16,17. However we are not justified by the law, we are saved by grace. In actuality, no one was ever justified by law. God instigated grace in Eden, when He made the first sacrifice Himself to cover Adam and Eve.Genesis 3:21. Their own efforts to cover themselves with leaves was futile. We have to be covered by a sacrifice instigated by God thus foreshadowing the future sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus.Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, Rev. 13:8, and all sins were forgiven on that basis in the Old Testament.

        • We are judged by the Law, not justified. If you disregard Torah what is anyone’s definition of ‘sin’? Whatever anyone hears from a spirit (Holy or not)? Deceiving spirits are sent as a test, and if they defy or contradict the Torah they are a lying spirit. Is that plain enough?

          • Right. That’s very important to make the distinction between being judged by the law and being justified by it. As long as you keep that distinction in mind, you’ll be fine. Just don’t lose sight of the fact that what is most important to God is the transformation of the inner man, which is the work of the Holy Spirit. We can keep the law to the best of our ability, but that won’t develop the qualities of selflessness that God is looking for. We can miss the point of the whole exercise if we are only focusing on Torah keeping and not on letting God change us into the new creatures that the New Covenant was instigated to make possible.

  12. I love this teaching on John 6:4. Every church needs to hear this because there is so much deception that is taking away the foundation of our faith which is that Torah that our Messiah Pointed us back to And taught us that it all points back to him. Planes trains and automobiles is one of my favorite movies too! We’re going the wrong way! Thank you for your help!

  13. Thanks Nehemia. I have kept Rood’s 70 week teaching at “arm’s length” for years, mainly because of other inconsistencies, but it looks like he makes a good case for this one. A valuable discussion. Will be alert for the rest of them.

  14. I’m confused why its not highlighted that seemingly John disrupts anyone paying attention allllllllllll the time aלללללללללללל the time with these types of things. A big one actually touched on within your examples, but not even mentioned (the 40 days after Jesus was baptized)… if you John 6.29 the alleged conundrum you find that this being this and that being that… the Passover was indeed nigh regardless of all the other details. Was it the date of Passover that was? idk, but the absolute heart of it was indisputably present. the text witnesses to it in an absolute way. If you work to believe in Jesus, and do that which He says… its testament.

  15. Ok, i listened to your comments with regard to Acts 21:25 in which you discuss the 8 words added to the text in the KJV, etc. In this you refer back to Acts 15 and read verse 21, however you failed to continue reading through the text to verses 28 & 29, which is the first time the discussion is made concerning this matter in Acts. Verse 28, “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to lay upon you any greater burden than these indispensable requirements:……etc”. (Amplified)
    I believe that may be a ‘second witness’ that you were referring too.
    If you are going to refute one text be sure you include all the text concerning that particular subject.

    • they were dealing with prospective converts from paganism, not with slaves. They were “treading lightly” to ease them into conformity with the great eternal plan. first we potty train, then we learn not to be cruel or selfish, then on to weightier and more subtle matters of right use. We all gotta start somewhere.

      • Amen Walter, it is about where you start, Some taught that one had to become a jew (circumsision being the evidence) before God would listen to you. Paul, Peter, John etc says no, lets not start there. Milk before meat… Jesus said quite clearly he was not here to abolish the Torah (Mat 5:17)

  16. This was a really compelling watch for me today during lunch. Looking forward to the other 3 parts. I’ve read the chronological gospels book by MR, but this video was a great follow up and makes MR less of a loner on this topic. Good stuff. May YHVH bless NW/NG and MR and KJ’s ministries. Keep up the good work.

    When was this this recorded by the way?

  17. Fabulous Nehemia! I heard the original show on SNL. MR explained in detail this John 4.6 confusion in his fabulous DVD The Jonah Code. It’s good to see all the evidence that backs it up. So thankful for you, Michael and John for doing all these investigations.

Please leave a comment.