Hebrew Voices #83 – Yeshua the Jewish Theologian

In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Yeshua the Jewish Theologian, Nehemia Gordon speaks with Prof. Brad Young about the powerful explanation of Matthew 11:12 in the context of the Jewish culture of the time, how we know John the Baptist was skeptical about Yeshua being the Messiah, and what it really means to be an anti-christ.

I look forward to reading your comments in the section below!

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Hebrew Voices #83 – Yeshua the Jewish Theologian

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: And what you’re saying is that when they heard him say this they immediately made the connection that he’s talking about the sheepfold, and the kingdom is bursting forth from the sheepfold being disseminated throughout the world. Wow, this is amazing stuff!

Benjamin Netanyahu: Lema’an Zion lo ekhesheh, u’l’ma’an Yerushalayim lo eshkhot.

Announcer: You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at nehemiaswall.com.

Nehemia: Shalom, I’m here once again in Afula with Professor Brad Young of Oral Roberts University. Shalom, Professor Young.

Brad: Good to be with you, Nehemia.

Nehemia: You are a professor at Oral Roberts University. Tell us what you are a professor of?

Brad: I’m a tenured professor of Judaic-Christian Studies in the graduate school.

Nehemia: To me that’s so amazing that a place like Oral Roberts University – which, I’ll be honest, I don’t know much about, but that is a pretty mainstream, I think, Christian university - that it would have a Judaic-Christian studies chair. To me, that’s incredible. That says so much about how far we’ve come, or maybe how far the Christians have come.

I want to tell a story. So, I was at my doctor recently, and my doctor’s an American Jew who’s been living in Israel for decades, and he’s a very busy guy. But he puts down his papers and he says, “You know, Nehemia, tell me what you’ve been doing.” And he says, “You always have these interesting stories.” And I tell him about how I’ve been traveling around and speaking in Jewish synagogues and in Christian churches. And one of the things that I share is about the Jewishness of Jesus. And he said, “But that’s obvious.” And this is an Orthodox Jew. He said, “That’s obvious. Did anybody ever question that?” Like that’s just obvious, Jesus was a Jew. He was one of us.

And here’s how I explained it to him. I said, “Imagine if I said to you, doctor, that Abraham wasn’t a Jew. That actually, Abraham was a Babylonian pagan.” And the doctor said, “Well, that was true until he was three years old, or however old. But then he was a Jew and he left that all behind.” I said, “Well, that’s how many Christians have, throughout history, looked at Jesus. That, yeah, he was a Jew, but then he knew better and left it all behind. Or he was getting into theology. And so, it’s almost a technicality that he was a Jew.” And what you’re teaching is not just the faith in Jesus, but the faith of Jesus, understanding him… I like to say, “His Jewish context.”

Brad: Yeah, because if we really look at that authentic setting in life, we have to put him in that environment…

Nehemia: Environment.

Brad: The Jewish environment.

Nehemia: The Jewish environment, yeah. I love that. And so, that’s really powerful. In other words, I wouldn’t say, “Let’s understand Abraham by studying the religion of Marduk.” But you’re saying, “We have to understand Jesus, this man, Yeshua, who was a Jewish man, by understanding his environment, because he didn’t just reject that and leave that behind.” How would you describe that, his relationship with his environment?

Brad: Well, because too many Christians kind of feel like, “Well, Jesus was a Presbyterian.” “He was Jewish, but he was really Catholic.” You know, I had a Catholic friend one time who just was having a hard time with that. And she finally says, “Well, I can accept Jesus as Jewish, but his mother, Mary, was Catholic.”

Nehemia: [laughing] That’s awesome. I have a joke that my friend who’s a Southern Baptist told me. So, he told me his father was a Southern Baptist, but his mother was some denomination called Nazarene.

Brad: Oh, sure.

Nehemia: And she had to become a Southern Baptist when she married his father. She struggled with it, and so she used to tease his father, she would say, “You know, John was a Baptist, but Jesus was a Nazarene.” Now we had mentioned in the previous discussion we’re talking about a Jewish-Christian interfaith dialogue and how that’s more possible today that Christians now look upon Jews as God’s people, as blessed. And today we are going to speak about this wonderful book you wrote… we’ll have a link on the website, it’s called Jesus the Jewish Theologian. I really want to get into some examples, some of which you bring in this book. You look at a certain concept in the Greek of the New Testament, and then you look into the Septuagint, which is the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Tanakh, and then look at the Hebrew word behind that Greek that it translates it, and you come up with these amazing discoveries from that.

Brad: One of my favorite examples of that, and I think there are many, is Micah 2:13, where we have the reference to the “breaker who breaks a door open in a makeshift sheepfold”. Usually, they would pile rocks up in a circle, or maybe in a corner of a cliff or canyon. And, you know, in Israel, I don’t know, there’s this old Midrash that said, “When the Holy One, Blessed-be-He, created the world, He put all the rocks and thistles in Israel.” [laughing] Well, we’ve got a lot of…

Nehemia: We have no shortage of… You know, it’s a funny one. Before I moved to Israel, like beginning in ’87 we would see on the nightly news the Intifada, the first Intifada, where the Arabs were throwing all these rocks. And I remember thinking, “Where do they get so many rocks?” And then I moved to Israel, and boy, if rocks were gold, we’d be the richest country in the world. [laughing]

Brad: No kidding.

Nehemia: All right. So, there’s this image in the Book of Micah where there’s this makeshift sheepfold, and it’s made of rocks that are keeping the sheep in at night. You know, we don’t have coyotes like in America, but we have jackals.

Brad: Oh, yeah.

Nehemia: And the jackals will kill the sheep. So, you’ve got to protect those sheep.

Brad: Well, in the morning, the sheep are wanting to get out, and so there’s one called a
“breaker”, in Hebrew, a “poretz” and he breaks open a door, and all the sheep go rushing out. And anybody that takes care of livestock knows that cattle or sheep in a pen, they want to get out. Well, you have a very difficult to translate word in Jesus’ teachings, “The kingdom suffers violence… ”

Nehemia: Matthew 11:12.

Brad: “… and the violent take it by force.”

Nehemia: And that’s been used to justify all kinds of scary things in Christian history, am I right?

Brad: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Nehemia: You say that; I actually didn’t know that. But you said that in the book, that people have used this to justify violence from the New Testament.

Brad: Yes, and it’s kind of a translation mistake, because the Greek word “beyadzimi” which translates as “suffering and violence”, is really related to this idea of breaking forth, which is opening up the sheep pen and having all the sheep breaking out, but it’s not the idea of violence. And also, one of the problems is whether we translate the word “beyadzimi” as a passive, or as a middle voice or as… So, when you say the “kingdom is under attack” or “is suffering violence”, it sounds like it’s receiving the action.

Nehemia: Let me read this verse, Matthew 11:12. So this in the context here, is just after John… And look, guys, he talks about this in his book. Please read this, Jesus the Jewish Theologian. This is chapter 5. The context here is that John sends messengers to Jesus, to Yeshua, and says, “Are you the one, or should we expect somebody else?” And then he kind of goes on after that, Matthew 11:12, “For from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence and the violent take it by force.” And that’s actually the New Revised Standard Version. What is your view of that translation, do you think that’s a decent translation?

Brad: Oh, I think it’s terrible.

Nehemia: Really?

Brad: I mean, in this verse…

Nehemia: Oh, in this verse, okay.

Brad: Overall, it’s a pretty good translation. Oh yeah, it’s a good translation.

Nehemia: What I appreciate about the NRSV is, I’ve looked at some of the translators, and they’re actually some serious scholars, you know. And so, I have a…

Brad: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Nehemia: …little more respect for that, as opposed to some translations where somebody said, “Well, we need to fit this social doctrine, modern-day social concept into our translation, so let’s change that word here.” And they don’t even know Greek, so what are those guys doing?

Brad: Right. The NRSV is trying to do a literal word-for-word translation and make it sound good and be understood in English.

Nehemia: But in this verse they drop the ball, you’re saying. Which is fine, no translation’s perfect.

Brad: Right.

Nehemia: This is the King James, “And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” So basically, they didn’t even change, more or less, the King James version. And you’re saying they’ve missed something in the Greek, because they didn’t understand the Hebrew concept that was being used here, which is poretz. And that’s based on Micah chapter 2 verse 13, and I’m reading it here from page 52 in your book.

It says, “He who opens the breach,” haporetz, “will go up before them. They will break through,” partzu, “and pass the gate going out by it. Their King will pass on before them, the LORD at their head,” and LORD there is in all caps, which is Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey. Now tie in the verse in Micah to the verse in Matthew, based on this Hebrew insight you have.

Brad: Well, the disciples of John the Baptist ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or will we look for someone else?” Apparently, John the Baptist had a lot of skepticism. I had a Jewish friend that read this book and they said, “I’m Jewish. I don’t believe in Jesus. I’m like John the Baptist.” They said, “I feel like there’s a place for me in the Newer Testament, because sometimes we’re trying to understand these things.” And I thought that was really a positive thing. We have people that have legitimate concerns, they’re trying to understand this. And even John the Baptist had this skepticism.

Nehemia: And why did he have this skepticism? You explain this in the book. This is profound, guys. In other words, John the Baptist, according to the New Testament, baptized Yeshua, baptized Jesus, and then, years later - or sometime later - he sends these messengers saying, “Are you the Messiah?” Like he’s doubting it. So, why is he doubting it?

Brad: Well, he connected the coming one with Daniel 7:13, probably even some of the Book of Enoch, which portrayed a son of man who’s the end-times judge, who punishes the wicked with a baptism of fire, blesses the righteous with a baptism of spirit, and it all kind of happens in an apocalyptic end-time scenario, and Jesus is telling him, Yeshua is saying, “No, there is a different plan. Look in Isaiah 35, there’s a servant who comes as a healer. He is one that opens the eyes of the blind. He prepares the way by bringing…” I think today in the Jewish community, we would probably say He brings tikkun, tikkun olam, the world is broken, a fractured place.

Nehemia: Repairing the world.

Brad: Those that are hurting. I think for him, Yeshua would probably say, “There’s a dynamic in the kingdom, this is the sovereignty of God bringing blessing.” And it’s forcefully advancing.

Nehemia: So, John the Baptist had what sounds to me like a very Jewish expectation, that the Messiah’s going to come and he’s going to defeat our enemies and judge the world. You know, it’s Isaiah 11. And what you’re saying is John didn’t understand, and in this passage Jesus, Yeshua, is explaining that, “No, the Messianic mission he’s fulfilling right now is as a healer. It’s not the Jewish expectation that you had. You guys were wrong. Here’s what I’m really here to accomplish.”

Brad: That’s right. Christians and Jews, we really have a lot in common when we talk about the Messiah. I mean, the point that Christians are really different, or kind of like between Jewish people who are really traditional in their views of the Messiah, say similar to Maimonides, or the Principles of Faith, or how he describes the Messiah. And if we go back earlier - because Jesus, we go back to Jewish apocalyptic interpretations and early Talmud - is that there’s going to be a last judgement, the end of war, the end of violence. Christians believe that too, but they believe in-between, there’s a kingdom…

Nehemia: The second coming.

Brad: There’s a kingdom period, ushered in by what we would refer to as “the suffering servant passages of Isaiah”, these passages that have that introduction, “eved Hashem,” the servant of the Lord, the servant of Adonai, eved Adonai. That he is the one who opens the blind eyes. He proclaims good news to the poor. He has this special anointing. And it’s a forceful movement, it’s breaking out.

Nehemia: And your point in the book here is that John didn’t know this. In other words, John’s understanding of Messiah was, “Okay, why are the Romans still here?” [laughing]

Brad: Yeah, why am I in prison? I mean, surely that has something to do with it, I’m in jail.

Nehemia: “I’m in prison. You were preaching in the synagogue about how the prisoners are going to be set free. What’s going on here? What kind of kingdom is this?” Right? All right, so let’s go back to Matthew 11:12, “The kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force,” and the connection in Micah 2:13 of, “The sheep are in the sheepfold and they want to get out.”

Brad: Yeah, this really helped me, because David Flusser discovered this old Midrash quoted by Radak on Micah 2:13 which said, “The breaker is Elijah, who prepares the way for the coming of the Messiah.” And then, the one who goes forth, the king, sometimes we say, “Melech haMashiach…”

Nehemia: Yeah, the King Messiah.

Brad: Midrash said, “He’s the tzemakh David,” the branch of David, another Messianic guide. So first Elijah prepares the way, and then the second figure of redemption comes, the branch of David, and he’s the Messianic deliverer. Well, it seems very clear that this is what Yeshua’s saying about himself. First, John the Baptist is the breaker. He breaks the hole, he’s the poretz. So, it would be better to translate Matthew 11…

Nehemia: Matthew 11:12.

Brad: “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom is powerfully breaking its way forward, and those who are breaking their way with it are seizing hold of it.” They’re breaking forth. The best translation of this, was, I think, in the NIV, which I hate to say, because the NIV is like not my favorite…

Nehemia: Let me pull it up.

Brad: …translation.

Nehemia: But sometimes, they get it right.

Brad: I would say, how could you translate the whole Bible without getting one verse right? Well, this is the one verse they got right.

Nehemia: They got it right, okay. So, Matthew 11:12 in the NIV is, “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing.”

Brad: You’ve got to go to the 1984 version of it.

Nehemia: According to my computer program, this is the 1984 version.

Brad: Is it? Maybe it’s the earlier. But the other one says…

Nehemia: So, there’s more than one NIV?

Brad: Yeah, there’s…

Nehemia: I don’t think most people know that. They think…

Brad: No, there’s several versions of it.

Nehemia: Most people don’t realize there are two different JPSs, that’s the Jewish Publication Society, there’s 1917 and 1985 - completely different translations.

Brad: That’s right.

Nehemia: So, what did the earlier NIV have where they got it right?

Brad: The earlier NIV, I think, is the best translation. Maybe it’s the ’79, it’s one of the earlier versions. I think maybe they changed it in ’84.

Nehemia: Okay.

Brad: That might be the newer one. But the newer one is just like the King James, but the older one says, “From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven is forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.”

Nehemia: Okay.

Brad: So, you’ve got the ending part of holding onto it, but you have “forceful men”. And you’ve got “forcefully advancing”. That’s kind of the idea of poretz, breaking forth.

Nehemia: Right.

Brad: And it’s an active meaning, it’s a middle. It’s something that comes from within, going without. I would say most Greek scholars see beyadzimi more as a deponent verb.

Nehemia: Explain to the audience what a deponent verb is, because they definitely don’t know.

Brad: A deponent verb may have a passive form, but it has an active meaning.

Nehemia: Okay. Like in Hebrew, nilcham, which is a passive verb that means “to wage war”. [laughing]

Brad: Right, and it’s a passive verb. It’s a niphal, or it can have a reflexive meaning, which is also the same thing as the middle in Greek.

Nehemia: Okay.

Brad: A reflexive is something you do to yourself, so maybe the idea of nilcham is, you’re forcing yourself out there. But, in fact…

Nehemia: Or you’re engaging in war with someone. There’s the hadadi thing, we call that in Hebrew.

Brad: Sure. The kingdom is breaking forth, forcefully advancing.

Nehemia: And that ties to Micah - what is it breaking forth from? From this makeshift corral of stones where the sheep are being penned in, right? That’s what you’re saying. And you tie that into the Greek back to the Septuagint in the Hebrew, right?

Brad: That’s right. Sometimes, the Septuagint translates paratz, the three-letter root of breaking forth, poretz, we say in the active meaning with beyadzimi, beyadzo, “to break forth”. And so, one thing we see in the words of Jesus is, there’s early tradition that it was originally written in Hebrew. Some people say Aramaic, they have a right to be wrong…

Nehemia: Amen. [laughter]

Brad: You know, I really think it’s… David Flusser, I think he made a very good point on that, because Hebrew and Aramaic are very similar, and most of what you would say about Aramaic would be true in Hebrew. And I think there are some things that are pretty decisive that it has to be Hebrew.

Nehemia: And Flusser was of the same opinion, you’re saying?

Brad: Yes.

Nehemia: And you’re not just taking about Matthew, you’re taking about the words of Jesus…

Brad: Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Nehemia: Matthew, Mark and Luke, okay.

Brad: Not John. And I would say that the Hebraic quality of New Testament documents would be Matthew, Mark and Luke, the first 15 chapters of Acts and the Book of Revelation.

Nehemia: Okay.

Brad: I also think the Book of Revelation was probably from a Hebrew source.

Nehemia: That makes sense, like Abaddon, and Armageddon, those are Hebrew words.

Brad: Yeah.

Nehemia: That’s pretty clear.

Here’s what’s really powerful about your understanding of Matthew 11:12. So the sheep are penned in, and the sheep, they’re breaking forth from this pen. And so, what does it mean, “The violent take it by force?”

Brad: They’re forcefully advancing, or they’re powerfully breaking their way forth.

Nehemia: They’re pushing out of the corral, is what you’re saying, is that?

Brad: Well, Yeshua is praising Yochanan. He’s saying, “John, you are like Elijah,” he says, “If you’re willing to receive it, John the Baptist is Elijah.” Not that he’s…

Nehemia: That he’s literally Elijah.

Brad: …impersonating John, but he’s fulfilling this role like the Midrash said, that David Flusser found. The preparation was John’s ministry, calling people to repentance from the days of John the Baptist until now. It’s breaking forth. But then, the second figure of redemption comes, the Tzemach David, and he starts leading the movement forward. So people who are breaking out, seizing hold of it, the disciples of Jesus receiving his teaching, taking the message of love, forgiveness, lovingkindness, charity. They’re putting it into operation and they’re bringing healing to the world.

Nehemia: Wow.

Brad: And so, this powerful movement of healing is supposed to proceed this next phase. So, you know, Christians, we believe the Messianic redemption comes in two phases.

Nehemia: The next phase is the second coming, right?

Brad: Phase one, Jesus goes, initiates this movement. He dies on the cross as the suffering servant. Second phase, he returns, just like John the Baptist thought. But John, you see the difference between John the Baptist and Jesus was the kingdom. John could not conceive of the kingdom…

Nehemia: So, the kingdom is now, according to your understanding, and in this verse…

Brad: Yes.

Nehemia: And what he’s saying is, this kingdom is poretz, it’s breaking forth - not by violence, but there’s this makeshift corral, and those walls keeping the kingdom back are being pushed down?

Brad: Right, right.

Nehemia: And what’s so powerful about this interpretation is, I would read Matthew 11:12, I’d even read it in the Greek, and I’d say, “So I don’t see anything here about sheep or a sheepfold.” But because you have this context, this Jewish environment, there were people in the audience who knew this Midrash. These things were preached in the synagogues, they knew these legends, these interpretations of Micah.

And what you’re saying is, when they heard him say this, they immediately made the connection - if they were smart enough - that he’s talking about the sheepfold, and the kingdom is bursting forth from this sheepfold, being disseminated throughout the world. Is that…?

Brad: I think we’ve got enough evidence. You would always like to have more evidence. It would be nice if we had this in the Dead Sea Scrolls…

Nehemia: Yeah.

Brad: …or Josephus. It’s a quotation in a later Midrash. We also have it in the Pesikta. But I think, because of the similarity in wording and the context, it’s just inescapable. And David Flusser came to this in the ‘60s. You know, I had a student who was working on this, and discovered that one of the great Bible scholars of the 17th century, Edward Pococke, found this text. He was a Semitist. He knew Greek. He probably worked with Hebrew and Aramaic, maybe Sephardic rabbis. But Edward Pococke, when he wrote his commentary in 1670 on the Book of Micah, gave this exact same interpretation. Now, David Dalby, also a great Jewish…

Nehemia: In other words, somebody independently came to the same interpretation by being able, possibly, to trace this back to the Hebrew through the Greek. And by the way, guys, this is on page 73 in footnote 20. I’m one of these people who reads the footnotes.

Brad: Good. My footnotes are important. I’ve got a lot of stuff in there.

Nehemia: Sometimes the most interesting thing is in the footnotes. And what you shared about Edward Pococke is here in the footnote. Guys, go read this, this is some powerful stuff in this book, Jesus the Jewish Theologian. So, I’m sorry, you were saying there was another person who had come to this conclusion as well?

Brad: Yeah, David Dalby, he wrote Rabbinic Background to the New Testament, and he also saw this connection. He made some comments similar. I don’t think it’s quite as on track with all the details like David Flusser and Edward Pococke. Of course, I think in my book I was able to go maybe a couple of steps further, just to make it a little clearer, strengthening that understanding of the context, right? As I’ve told you, I’m working on a fresh translation of the Newer Testament, and…

Nehemia: You call it the “Newer Testament” and the “Older Testament”. How come you don’t call in the “New Testament” and the “Old Testament?”

Brad: I think when we say “Old Testament” it sounds like it’s obsolete, or it’s expired. And you can talk about the Tanakh; many aren’t familiar with the Hebrew term. I would be very happy with that. I kind of like the older term, Mikrah which would mean, “that which is read”.

Nehemia: Amen, Mikrah.

Brad: Mikrah as opposed to Mishnah. But when I say “Older Testament”, everybody knows what I’m talking about. And when I say, “Newer Testament”, I think we’ve got to see it as a testament that’s being renewed. It’s a covenantal relationship that is renewed through obedience, rather than this idea that we have a new that replaced the old.

Nehemia: Okay, so you’re working on a translation of the Newer Testament.

Brad: And so, it’s wonderful, I think, to be able to give a translation to believers that they can read it like 1st century readers. So, my goal in the translation…

Nehemia: Wow. That’s awesome.

Brad: …our goal is that you would read it like a 1st century reader. So we have it from the days of Yochanan the Immerser. Until now, the Kingdom of Heaven is powerfully making its way forward. And so you get this context a little bit better. You know, we use the Hebraic form of names, those kinds of things, to help people.

Nehemia: What I love about you doing this is, you really are a knowledgeable scholar. There are people who have tried to do this thing where they basically did search and replace every time it says, “John” they’ll put in “Yochanan”. But basically, they’re giving you the King James Version, or some form of that. But you actually read the Greek and you understand the Jewish environment and the Hebrew context. And so, you’re really bringing something really important here. When will this translation be ready? When can we expect it? What will it be called?

Brad: Well, during this time of study, I’ve finished going through Revelation again. And we’re doing this final editing. And there are some other things - I’m writing introductions to every one of the 27 books. And we’ve got minimal notes. The first edition, we’ll have translation notes, mainly where there’s a big translation difference.

You know, another one I think that’s really remarkable that’s just on Greek without the Hebrew is what sometimes they call the Yohani Pentacost, where Yeshua breathes on the disciples the Holy Spirit. He says, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whosoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven.” The other translations it says, “Whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.” And this has always been something that was kind of puzzling…

Nehemia: Like, “What does that mean?” [laughing]

Brad: Like, “How do you not forgive sins?” I mean, I don’t ever remember… Usually you’re trying to forgive sins, or if they ask you to forgive, you can decide not to forgive. But, you know, that’s something you did against somebody. But you should forgive.

Well, you know, I’ve been translating this word “crateo” in Greek, over and over again. It appeared in the Book of Acts, it means, “To have power over.” And really, what this is – and I think this is an innovation in this new translation, you probably won’t find any other place – it may be hinted at in another translation…

Nehemia: …going straight back…

Brad: It goes straight back to the...

Nehemia: You’re not making stuff up.

Brad: We’re not making it up.

Nehemia: This is what the Greek says.

Brad: This is what the Greek says.

Nehemia: Yeah.

Brad: And I always say any translation you study it in light of other translations, and the Greek canonical text is what’s authoritative for Christian believers. Of course, Jewish scholars always are invited to read and study, and contribute, and help us. But the translation would say, “Whosoever sins, you forgive, they stand forgiven,” it’s actually the perfect tense.

Nehemia: Oh, wow.

Brad: And then you’d say, “Whosoever sins, you give power to overcome,” they stand with the power to overcome temptation to sin. They stand with power to overcome sin. So that it’s really a parallel synonym. You know, a lot of times in Hebrew we have a synonymous parallelism. And sometimes we have an antithetical parallelism.

Nehemia: Right. My favorite example is, “Listen, oh heavens, ha’azinu hashamayim va’adabera v’tishma ha’aretz imrei pi.” “Listen, oh heaven, and I will speak. Hear, oh earth, to the words of my mouth.” So, heaven and earth are opposite, but I will speak and my words are synonyms. So, it has both in that example.

Brad: That’s beautiful. You’ve got both, yeah!

Nehemia: And that’s just like almost every sentence in the Bible, is something like that, potentially. So, you’re saying you have this in the Gospel of John, and by identifying that and going back to the Greek, you’re understanding something that’s been translated wrong by pretty much everybody else.

Brad: It’s probably been taken through tradition. Sometimes this is used to forgive sins, maybe to have an ecclesiastical authority that can forgive. And so, sometimes I think there’s even something that pulls people into that. But if you look at atheomy, which means to send away, forgive, and then you say crateo, that’s “to have power over”, well, the person is being forgiven. They’re giving power over the sin, and what happened? They receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the whole thing of the Gospel of John, having strength over the darkness, strength over wrong – you know, the light shines in the darkness, the darkness didn’t overpower it.

Why would you have this saying that really isn’t connected? I mean, some people connect it to Matthew and the binding and loosing, and there are some other parallels there that are there. But I think, when you really look at the context of John, it doesn’t have another parallel. It’s the idea of forgiveness, of sins having power to overcome sin. So, you have that empowerment from the Holy Spirit. To me, that was pretty exciting.

Nehemia: That’s pretty cool. I’m really looking forward to this translation. You said Revelation has Hebraic character to it. Can you give us a Hebrew example from the Book of Revelation? You said you were just working on it.

Brad: When you look at the Book of Revelation, of course, there are many quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures. And you’ll see these descriptions of heaven related to the theophany of Isaiah.

Nehemia: Tell us what theophany is, because I know, but…

Brad: Theophany is this experience of seeing into the divine realm, where you see the glory of God. God is revealing Himself, the word “theos” meaning God, “ophany” is this feeling…

Nehemia: I love one of the theophanies there, where you have the angels saying, “kadosh, kadosh, kadosh”, which is the same theophany as takes place in Isaiah, “holy, holy, holy”, and then that’s repeated in Revelation. And then you have the word “halleluyah” appearing twice in Revelation, which doesn’t appear anywhere else in the New Testament… Newer Testament.

Brad: Yeah. Think about the Hallelujah chorus that many Christians are familiar with, and the Messiah of Handel. Some even say Handel had some kind of vision of heaven. I always liked that, and always sang standing the Hallelujah Chorus, I can’t help myself. I have to hit the person next to me and say, “This is Hebrew, you know?” Because every phrase… I mean of course, Hallelujah is a beautiful Hebrew term.

Nehemia: “Praise Yah.”

Brad: But when you see something in like Revelation 1:8, where you talk about the “first, the last, who is, who was…”

Nehemia: Yeah, talk about that.

Brad: “…who is to come.” So, when you say that “He is the…

Nehemia: I’m excited, go on.

Brad: “…beginning and the end,” well, we have so many Hebraic sources that talk about the Lord, the God, Almighty of Israel, as the One who is, who was, and who is to come, “Hu hoveh, Hu haya, Hu yihyeh - haya, hoveh, yihyeh…”

Nehemia: Amen.

Brad: …we always see that. And then, we’ve got, alpha and omega, “mikatzeh le’katzeh”, and probably the Greek translator. I mean, they’re writing alpha and omega rather than the Aleph and the Tav. Maybe in the original, it was Aleph and the Tav. And I say… you know, I translate the Greek. I think another aspect…

Nehemia: Wait, wait. We can’t just gloss over that. So you’re saying, when I said “I am the alpha and the omega,” in the original Hebrew of Revelation that it said, “I am the Aleph and the Tav”, is what you’re saying?

Brad: That’s my theory.

Nehemia: Wow. And then when he says, “Who is, who was, and who is to come,” which appears I think three or four times in Revelation, that’s the Hebrew phrase, “haya, hoveh, yihyeh”, which I think most Jews would say is the source of God’s name, Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey.

Brad: Oh yes, absolutely.

Nehemia: Okay. So, you’re affirming that?

Brad: Absolutely.

Nehemia: Oh, wow. This is cool.

Brad: Yeah.

Nehemia: All right. So, this is an allusion to the name of what Christians call “the Father”, or “our Heavenly Father,” Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey, when he says, “haya, hoveh, yihyeh.” I think that’s pretty cool.

Brad: Yeah, I think that’s where, for instance, it seems we have a lot in common, we need to rely on our Father who is in Heaven.

Nehemia: Right. So, this is what’s very cool. So, I grew up going to a synagogue, and we have the prayer, Adon olam.

Brad: [singing] Adon olam asher malah…

Nehemia: So, I had a different tune in my synagogue, but we would sing, “Ve hu haya, ve hu hoveh, ve hu yihyeh…” and then I read this in Revelation several times, and I’m like, “Wait, this is hu haya.” And you, as a Greek scholar and expert in the New Testament, a professor at Oral Roberts University, you are affirming that this the Adon Olam, hu haya, hu hoveh, hu yihyeh, which is the meaning, the explanation of Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey, eheyeh asher eheyeh, which ties it in.

Brad: Yeah, I love Adon Olam, that’s one of my favorite tunes. And I think it was written later, but it was based on these…

Nehemia: Right, but it’s using these concepts.

Brad: Both of them come from these earlier sources.

Nehemia: Right, right. It’s using this concept which comes from Exodus 3:14 and 15…

Brad: Absolutely.

Nehemia: …which is haya, hoveh, yihyeh, right.

Brad: Yeah, it’s right there. I’m just trying to clarify.

Nehemia: Yeah, yeah. We’re not saying Adon Olam is 2,000 years old…

Brad: That’s right.

Nehemia: …but the concept in Adon Olam, hu haya, hu hoveh, hu yihyeh, maybe without the hu, that’s clearly that old, because it’s in Revelation. This is interesting. I once heard a lecture where a professor at Hebrew University was saying, “Why do I study the New Testament?” And he gave the example of how without the New Testament, we don’t know that the Jewish tradition of reading a Prophets’ portion goes back to Second Temple times. We believe it does. We hypothesize that it does, but here you have in the New Testament, definitive evidence. You know, Yeshua, Jesus, opens up the Scroll of Isaiah, that’s the Haftarah, the Prophets’ portion.

It’s been hypothesized it goes back to the Greek persecutions and the Seleucids. But here, we have definitive proof, so we’re learning our history, some of our history we can learn from the New Testament, and here’s an example where we have this prayer from the Middle Ages, Adon Olam, and a phrase from Adon Olam shows up in the Book of Revelation, which shows it existed at that time. It’s amazing stuff!

Brad: It’s amazing.

Nehemia: This is amazing stuff, I love this.

Brad: It really is.

Nehemia: So, you were going to give one more example from Revelation.

Brad: Well, I think one that’s kind of interesting to me, and you know, Robert Henry Charles a long time ago saw this, and others have seen it. But you have this curious verse about the antichrist, he’s also called “the man of lawlessness”. I like to point out that when we say “lawlessness, anoyah,” it means really “anomious.” It means that you are against the Torah. It’s not against law, but he’s the man who’s opposing Torah.

Nehemia: So, he’s not opposing Roman law, or American. He’s opposing… the nomos there that’s being opposed is the Torah.

Brad: Torah, of course.

Nehemia: Okay.

Brad: You’ve got to see Torah here, and the Torah-centeredness of the early followers of Yeshua at this time. But then they use this curious number, 666, which people are trying to understand. There’s a lot of theories and everything, but it seems more than just coincidence that if you write Neron Caesar in Hebrew, it adds up to 666.

Nehemia: Which means?

Brad: Nero, this terrible persecutor of the Jews.

Nehemia: Is this Caesar Nero?

Brad: Caesar Nero, he persecuted the Christians. He would kind of like Antiochus Epiphanes, a form of the one who is opposing Torah in every way. And, you know, I don’t think that 666 is supposed to be the name of somebody later, maybe. But it comes out later, it may be used later in the way that he starts. But it’s the epitome of evil - opposing all that God is, opposing the Torah. And maybe instead of trying to figure out 666 with some current leader, we should say, “No, this is like the source of all evil,” kind of like the Book of Daniel, Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

But isn’t it fascinating? I mean, you could add it up different ways, but I thought when I saw that, it shows you a Hebraic background, and we know that Nero was a great persecutor of the church. He was probably dead when John was writing, because by writing the…

Nehemia: And John wouldn’t have dared write “Caesar Nero” because he was living under Roman rule. So instead, he used the Hebrew gematria which represented that name, is what you’re saying?

Brad: Yes, I think that’s likely.

Nehemia: Okay, that makes sense.

Brad: You’ve got to exercise a little bit of caution. I think it’s pretty straight.

Nehemia: Now, some of the listeners are getting really nervous, because they’re saying, “No, we need this to be a figure in the future, that we’re looking forward to being our enemy,” and you’re not necessarily saying, “That’s wrong.”

Brad: No.

Nehemia: Meaning, 666 - that was Nero and it could be a figure in the future that’s a Nero-type, right?

Brad: A Nero-type. He’s the epitome of evil, this force that’s opposing God’s law. And I say that when we look at the…

Nehemia: Opposing the Torah.

Brad: …opposing the Torah. When you look at the abomination of the desolation, this force of evil, I mean, what we kind of know, this historical event when the Temple was polluted…

Nehemia: You’re talking about Daniel.

Brad: But Daniel, again, is showing somebody like Nero who is going to oppose this in the future. Some people believe - I mean, there seems to have been this myth - some scholars feel like Nero would come back even though he was dead, and it would be really, really bad.

Nehemia: I’ve never heard that. That’s interesting. You mean, there are Christians who said that?

Brad: There were some that believed that Nero might return in some way and continue his evil rule.

Nehemia: And maybe if it’s not a literal Nero, there’ll be a spiritual Nero who will arise to oppose the Torah and persecute people. But you mentioned “antichrist”. I have experienced… antichrist is often used as a spearhead for anti-Semitism, that when a Christian encounters a Jew and they want to just with one word, delegitimize the Jew they say, “That Jew’s an antichrist,” and they point to the passage in 1 John 7 through 12, where the antichrist is the one who says that the Messiah didn’t come in the flesh, or something like that. You know what I’m talking about? Can you briefly just talk about this phrase, “antichrist?”? Does that refer to Jews?

Brad: No, no. It has no connection to Jews, and when we see the word “antichrist…” I mean, there are a couple of approaches. One is that it’s one that’s opposing the anointing, the work of the Spirit, what was working in Christ. And the Epistle of John mentions more than one antichristoid.

Another way to look at that is when we have the word “anti” in front of something, it sometimes means “in the place of”. Like they are replacing Christ with somebody like this epitome of evil…

Nehemia: So, antichrist could be the “false Christ”.

Brad: The false Christ.

Nehemia: And so, to throw that term at a Jew is completely taking the Greek of the New Testament out of its context.

Brad: Yeah, completely out of context. And thankfully, I will say, I don’t think I’ve heard that very much.

Nehemia: Well, I’ve been called an antichrist.

Brad: I’m very sorry that’s happened, and I always like to try to…

Nehemia: For being Jewish.

Brad: …try to understand, oh, yeah.

Nehemia: For believing in Judaism and the Tanakh, I’ve been called an antichrist.

Brad: I sometimes tell my students that probably every Jewish person you know has probably been accused of killing Jesus at one time. And I think sometimes a Jewish person feels that, “Probably all these Christians think that.” But it’s probably just these super-radicals that would say some horrible thing like that, or would believe it.

Nehemia: Or it might be people who are ignorant, and like you said, this can be fixed through education and research, which I think is a very powerful thing to say. In other words, you know from being an expert in this field, that the more that scholars delve into the Jewish environment of the New Testament, the more that will debunk anti-Semitism, because you’ve seen the Jewish environment. You can see it from the Greek, even. So, that’s some powerful stuff.

Thank you so much, Professor Brad Young. Would you end this with a prayer? Would you pray for us?

Brad: Yes. Would you like me to pray in Hebrew?

Nehemia: I would love for you to pray in Hebrew.

Brad: Avinu hayakar shebashamayin, anachnu modiim Lecha shenochal lashevet yachad, lehachlif beineinu divrei Torah, divrei dvarkah, lilmod yachad. Berechna et kol hashom’im, barech kulanu. Beshem hayakar shelcha, amen.

Nehemia: Amen.

Announcer: You have been listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at nehemiaswall.com.

You have been listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

We hope the above transcript has proven to be a helpful resource in your study. While much effort has been taken to provide you with this transcript, it should be noted that the text has not been reviewed by the speakers and its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. If you would like to support our efforts to transcribe the teachings on NehemiasWall.com, please visit our support page. All donations are tax-deductible (501c3) and help us empower people around the world with the Hebrew sources of their faith!


CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
03:01 Understanding Matthew 11:12
20:08 Prof. Young’s translation of the NewER Testament
22:29 Forgiving and Overcoming Sin
26:01 Hebraisms in the Book of Revelation
30:31 What is an anti-christ
36:18 Conclusion

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Verses Mentioned:
Micah 2:13
Matthew 11:12
Daniel 7:13
Isaiah 35
Isaiah 11
John 1

Scholars Mentioned:
Prof. Brad Young
David Flusser
Robert Henry Charles
Edward Pococke
David Daube

Books Mentioned:
Jesus the Jewish Theologian
The Newer Testament

Related Posts:
Reading the New Testament Through Jewish Eyes
Was the New Testament Originally Written in Aramaic
Understanding the Difficult Words of Yeshua
Hebrew Manuscript of the Book of Revelation
The Great 'I AM' Revealed
Torah and Prophet Pearls
Hebrew Voices Episodes
Hebrew Gospel Pearls
Teachings on the Name of God
Support Team Studies

  • Kaysie says:

    This was awesome! Thank you!

  • Kathy Richardson says:

    Wonderful episode.
    I learn so Much from you.
    Nothing compares.

  • Fran Morris says:

    This was most revealing about breaking forth. I am studying Hebrew and finding the depth of original meanings.

  • Ruth Y Smith says:

    I loved this, very insightful. I appreciated it all, so many mysteries explained.

    I have to say that I really appreciated the professor making sense of the “retaining” unforgiveness issue for personal reasons. A relative of mine understood it as meaning a right to retain (against someone) and I felt that her interpretation was somehow missing something – even though she was quoting, and when I read Yeshua’s Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (or Unmerciful Servant, as it’s sometimes called) in Matthew 18:21-35, I was more convinced than ever that her understanding had to be wrong-headed (wrong-hearted, too) – so it’s good to get linguistical evidence of that, actually. It’s interesting to note how many others in history may have gotten that wrong, too…and just how essential wholehearted forgiveness is to the Lord!

  • Things I look for in a translation are the illumination of things that previously appeared to make no sense, or things that appeared to be in jarring contrast to the remainder of Scripture. When something is translated in such a way that it does make more sense or does appear to be in better accord with the rest of Scripture, I think the translation is more accurate. Newer research is leading to better translations because we are discovering things that shed more light on the nature of the Hebrew language and culture. More and more, people are discovering idioms and turns of phrase in the Greek MSS that no native Greek speaker would normally use. They are discovering that when you translate it into Hebrew it makes more sense. I think that one day somebody will discover first century, NT MSS in Hebrew. For some people this will be a wondrous thing, but for others it will be most unwelcome news! Your guest was very interesting and I got a lot out of the presentation, as usual. I liked the reference to gematria and 666. This may indeed have been one of those things that didn’t translate well.

  • Bibi says:

    I would love to see what Dr. Young prayed written in Hebrew with an English translation.

  • Ed says:

    I am under the impression that the Popes of Rome have all been anti-torah. Again are they not all Lawless by that definition then? They have tried to change times and laws. Maybe the chief spirit of antichrist embodies an office? I cannot think of any other position held by a man on Earth, that if that man was arrested by Angelic forces would not fulfill what was spoken in Daniel. Daniel saw a little horn with a mouth boosting proud things brought before the Ancient of Days. I mean, will the Popes not utter “you can’t arrest me” I’m the holy father” “I judge Angels” “I say who becomes Saint” on and on…. The papacy with European Kings divided the WHOLE Earth for a price… All the lands in the West up to the two state solution. I pray for the deceived that they may come to embrace the truth.

  • John Faull says:

    Thank you, Nehemia for this interview and all the others with those who have blazed the trail in these studies! I have a few of Prof. Young’s books thanks to your earlier interview with him and I too am an avid note reader. To me they are as treasure to be uncovered and almost always lead to greater discoveries. I enjoy checking out sources from these notes and have increased my library with the works of Blizzard, Fussler, Heschel and many others. Thank you, again, for the these interviews and for expanding and challenging the Christian traditions of my faith and destroying the small boxes that had imprisoned my faith. Truly, be Blessed!

  • daniel says:

    Wonderful, wonderful! I can’t wait to get a hold of Professor Young’s N.T. translation. Sounds like his comparative religion is nothing like what I experienced as a teen, which was followed by comparative denominations – and turned out to be something like “We seek Justice and come away with ‘just us’.”.

    • daniel says:

      … also, the spirit of Eliyahu (John) breeching the makeshift corral of Phariseeism (which constrained those of the Kingdom), so the Messiah could lead them into the full power of Torah (as originally intended) … is what the Professor seemed to be hinting all around, but just didn’t get there.

  • Sheila Price says:

    As to ‘the anti-christ’… I’ve thought for some time that there have been people all down through history who have been the vehicles for the spirit of pure evil that goes against all things of Yehovah… as in The Torah… such as Nero, Hitler and I’m sure many others who have been and/or will be, before The Messiah comes back and ends evil once and for all.

  • Sheldon Heringer says:

    wonderful dialoge, thanks for providing such excellent content, refreshing to find people willing to look at the text apart from tradition. I have found the rule of Moses most helpful, especially with “new testament” passages that are difficult

  • Walter Schwenk says:

    I was taught that evidence of hebrew source to revelation is the enigmatic reference to Yahshua’s name on his “thigh”, Rev 19:16. If from hebrew, the similarity of “degel”(banner), and “regel”(leg) would explain the unusual location for a name. If the name was on a flag, would make more sense. You know how similar letters dalet and reysh can be. Also, on “666”; scholars with arabic background have pointed out that the greek writing of 666 is very similar to the arabic words for “b’shem allah”, or “in the name of allah”. Simon Altaf taught that, as well I think as others.

  • Fran Brashear says:

    Thank you, Nehemia and Prof. Brad Young! I hope you have more interviews together because it is so educational. I’d venture to say that a lot of your listeners are like me, in that I don’t know the Hebrew language and how the customs in Yeshua’s time come into play in the scriptures. All the information and accuracy of translations you provide us are precious….it’s like hearing the voice of Yehovah. This Hebrew Voices was so soul stirring! (I have learned from you, Nehemia, that ‘soul’ in Hebrew means ‘appetite’….so I literally mean, it stirred my appetite for more. May Yehovah bless you and give you strength to continue on with this MOST important work.

    Fran

  • Dave and Bonnie Kimble says:

    Thank you for this teaching Nehemia! Bonnie and I looked at each other and simply said, ” We love that guy!”. What a blessing that Professor Brad is teaching such profound Truth at a leading US christian college. Awesome! We are so blessed by the open dialogs and joy of your spirit in all of your interviews.

  • Jack Gilpin says:

    Possibly a similiar passage is
    Malachi 4:2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3.And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soless of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts. 4. “Remember the law of my server Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Isreal. 5. Behold I will send Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

  • Russell Budlong says:

    thank you again

  • Ed says:

    Was Abraham a Jew? Considering that Jews are the decendants of Judah? Or was he Hebrew? Is this argument just semantics? To me it’s like saying that all Texans are Americans but not all Americans are Texans. Is this correct?

  • Scott says:

    These are some of my favorite interviews, very educational, and causing me to sit back and ponder the thoughts of others.

  • I’ve been following Nehemia for quite sometime now and I do hope that you continue to do the good work. You are a blessing to many.

  • Sean finn says:

    Fantastic Nehemia love this,you make my journey to work a pleasure. Sean

  • GF says:

    This is amazing. There needs to be more dialogue like this exploring christianity from the jewish environment that existed at the time. Keep up the great work!

  • E Lorendon says:

    The comment from 32:00 min is really apt. I say so because yeshua says in John 2:17.

    Oops I didn’t think of it in that context relating to my Jewish brethren… Cause i understand it to mean, in the stead of and Jews are still awaiting the coming of moshiach

  • Rebekah Berry says:

    thank you Nehemiah. I found this very refreshing

  • LP says:

    Matthew 11:12 in my Bible reads: “But from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it. “

    • E Lorendon says:

      LP; what version?

      • LP says:

        The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

        • Susan says:

          New World Translation Bible released in 1961; is published, used and distributed by Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is their own translation of the bible. If you have been studying with the “wandering Jew” Nehemia very long we know that none of the translations are 100% accurate. Some are closer than others. The morphing of words from one culture into another & word meaning/understanding changes over time somethings & the original intent is sometimes “Lost in translation”.

          • LP says:

            yes, “some are closer than others”. I was very pleased to see that my Bible translated Matthew 11:12 more accurately than the others talked about in this episode of Nehemia’s. Other Bible scholars such as Benjamin Kedar and Jason BeDuhn have commented on the accuracy of the NWT. Nothing involving humans is ever perfect of course.

        • Walter Schwenk says:

          Thanks for that LP. NWT is an under appreciated work, can be acquired cheap or free, quite well researched, good notes. Have respected JW friends.

        • Sarah says:

          I always got a laugh when one teacher would say “the NAS says xxxx but what this really means in the Greek is yyyy” and yyyy was invariably what was written in the New World translation in my hand.

  • love this.

    • Yeah, Yeshua was the Theologian, no doubt but he didn’t study theology or attend any Jewish Theological seminary in his days, there is no need for him either because he is the source of all theologies.