Hebrew Voices #105 – Zionist Jew Speaks to a Salafi Muslim

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: So, if you had someone in your masjid, in your mosque who was saying things about ISIS, you would kick…

Shamsi: Kick him out.

Nehemia: You’d kick him out.

Shamsi: Without any doubt.

Nehemia: Good for you.

Shamsi: Yes.

Nehemia: Tell me what your name is, sir.

Shamsi: My name’s Shamsi.

Nehemia: Shamsi.

Shamsi: Brother Shamsi.

Nehemia: Brother Shamsi. I'm here with Brother Shamsi in Speakers' Corner, and he is going to represent the perspective of Sunni Islam. Tell us what it is that you believe.

Shamsi: I’m was gonna talk about Islam and Judaism, but…

Nehemia: We can talk about that too.

Shamsi: Okay, no problem.

Nehemia: But let's start with the basics.

Shamsi: No problem. As Sunni Muslims, we believe, of course, in the five pillars of Islam. We believe that we should worship God alone, worship Allah alone, and to not associate anything as a partner with him. So, any acts of worship have to be directed to Allah. And we believe that you should not worship Prophet Muhammad, that will take you out of Islam, or Abu Bakr. We're not allowed to worship anyone or anything besides Allah.

Nehemia: Wait, wait, you said Abu Bakr.

Shamsi: Abu Bakr is one of the Prophet Muhammad's companions.

Nehemia: You can't worship Abu Bakr, you can’t worship Mohammed. What would be another example of something that…

Shamsi: People look up to Omar, one of the Prophet Mohammed's disciples. The Sunnis would look up to him as one of the great companions of Prophet Mohammed.

Nehemia: But you don't worship him?

Shamsi: No, no, we don't worship anything. Except Allah, of course, and we testify that Mohammed is the messenger of Allah, that’s the first pillar.

Nehemia: That’s the second? Oh, it’s the first.

Shamsi: It’s the first one, yeah. So, it's two testimonies but it's one pillar. And also, we do five daily prayers. Also, we also give charity, and we believe to fast the month of Ramadan, and to go hajj, you know, the pilgrimage.

Nehemia: Pilgrimage to Mecca.

Shamsi: To Mecca, if you're able to do so physically and financially. Also, we have what’s called the “Six pillars of faith,” to believe in one God, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, and the God of Jesus, and Prophet Mohammed, and all of them. And to believe in the angels, and believe in the books like the Torah, believe in the Injeel, and the Scripture that was given to the Prophets. Believe in the Prophets and messengers, like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, all of them.

Nehemia: Wait, so that's really interesting to me, as a Jew. Do you believe in the prophet Isaiah and Jeremiah?

Shamsi: Jeremiah, yes. All of them.

Nehemia: Do you believe those books are accurate?

Shamsi: No, we believe that, yes, God gave them a book. We believe they were inspired by God. However, the books that you have now which is called the Old Testament, we don't believe everything in it.

Nehemia: And the New Testament as well, you don't believe everything in it?

Shamsi: Yes, that's correct. We don't believe everything in the New Testament.

Nehemia: Do you believe the original Tanakh, and Old Testament, and New Testament were true, but they were corrupted?

Shamsi: Yeah, that's correct. I believe that God gave a book which is the Torah to Moses, and other books they were uncorrupted, but afterwards, they became corrupted.

Nehemia: I've been told that some Muslims believe that Isaac wasn't... You know, there's a story of the binding of Isaac in Judaism. And so, I was told that some Muslims believe in the binding of Ishmael.

Shamsi: Yeah, of the sacrifice, the story of the sacrifice.

Nehemia: So, that wasn’t Isaac, that was…

Shamsi: Yes, we believe it was Ishmael. We believe it was Ishmael, that’s correct.

Nehemia: Is that in the Quran?

Shamsi: The Ishmael one, yes. It’s in the Quran. But it doesn't say Ishmael.

Nehemia: So, where does it say Ishmael?

Shamsi: In the Sunnah, the prophetic tradition. In the prophetic tradition, it mentions that.

Nehemia: Is that like the Hadith?

Shamsi: Yeah, the Prophet Mohammed said the Hadith is of our revelation. Because what Prophet Mohammed said, “I’m the son of the one who was the sacrifice.” His father was about to sacrifice him, which is what Prophet Mohammed says wasn’t Isaac. It goes back to Qedar and Ishmael. So, let me go back to it in general. So, we believe in God, believe in the Injeel…

Nehemia: The six pillars.

Shamsi: The six pillars of the heart, which it is called. So, the five pillars are mentioned, called outward actions. Now, the six pillars of the inward, believe in God, believe in the angels, believe in the messengers, believe in the books, and believe in the day of judgment, and believe in the pre-decree, that everything that occurs within the creation is by God's permission. So, that's what we believe. Yes, that’s the Islamic belief. And also, we believe, there is a pillar called Ihsan, which means completeness. You worship God as you see Him. Even though you don't see Him, He surely sees you.

Nehemia: What do you mean, as you see Him?

Shamsi: As we see Him. Like you know, when you imagine I wanted to rob someone, I want to steal. I remember, “No, I can see God,” meaning I have that belief that I know God exists. You know, some people believe in God, but they don't have that belief that God exists, because He’s watching them.

Nehemia: Because what?

Shamsi: God is watching them.

Nehemia: Watching them.

Shamsi: Yeah, yeah. So, you have to have that belief. You believe that God is watching you, and God is there.

Nehemia: That is called Ihsan?

Shamsi: Ihsan, yeah, which is completeness. So, there are three levels. There’s Islam, Iman, Ihsan. The five pillars of Islam, the six pillars of Iman, and the pillar of Ihsan which is the perfection.

Nehemia: Wait, is that the seventh one, or it’s one of the sixth?

Shamsi: No, let me make it clear.

Nehemia: Sorry.

Shamsi: No problem. There are what’s called the “three levels of religion,” three levels of religion. The first level is Islam, which is called the “five pillars of Islam,” which is the outward actions. The second level is called pillars of “al-Iman,” of faith, which is inward actions.

Nehemia: Like in Hebrew, “emuna.”

Shamsi: Okay, Iman, yeah. And also, you have the last level, which is the level of “al-Ihsan,” which is the highest level. When you start worshiping God as you see Him, even though you don't see Him, He surely sees you. Meaning that you have that belief that God is there, God is watching you, and God watches every action. For everything you do, you do it for God. I have someone, I do it for God.

Nehemia: Now, you said you wanted to talk to me a little about Judaism.

Shamsi: But you also mentioned the Shia, I spoke to you.

Nehemia: Yes, I spoke to a Shiite, and he told us that the Sunnis were murderers, and liars, and a bunch of things. People can go watch that episode. It's interesting, because you've talked to me right now about all these things of faith and what you believe, in a very positive way. And his perspective was definitely coming about how…

Shamsi: Attacking.

Nehemia: …Islam has been falsified, and what you think is Islam is false. I don't think it's entirely fair to say he didn't start, but to some extent, he was telling me about, “here's what we're not, and here's where the fake people are.” I appreciate that you're telling me in a positive way.

Shamsi: Of course.

Nehemia: Tell me about your perspective on the whole Sunni-Shiite divide.

Shamsi: To be honest, I have many videos, me, myself debating.

Nehemia: So, where’s your YouTube channel that people can find?

Shamsi: My YouTube channel is DUS Dawah.

Nehemia: How do you spell Dawah?

Shamsi: Dawah, D-A-W-A-H.

Nehemia: Tell us what Dawah is in Arabic.

Shamsi: In English, you mean?

Nehemia: Dawah is Arabic for “calling,” right?

Shamsi: Yeah, for calling or preaching. Yeah, teaching.

Nehemia: It's sort of like evangelism but in Islam.

Shamsi: Yes, in a way. You’re right, yeah. I believe Shiism is something which came after. I believe Shiism is a heretic group. Of course, some people are gonna think I'm gonna be biased, because I'm a Sunni. I will tell you go, ask them questions. The question that you ask them, “Tell me your foundation of your religion?” Then ask them to prove his foundation from the Quran. I've been asking this question to Shiism many times. Your foundation that you have to only follow the household of the Prophet Mohammed, and it's more important to follow in his companions. Where does Allah say that we have to follow al-beyt? Al-beyt, means his household.

Nehemia: The household of the Prophet.

Shamsi: It’s not there. They say it is permissible to call upon Ali.

Nehemia: And that's shirk, right?

Shamsi: Which is called “shirk,” right. You know that, yeah.

Nehemia: In Hebrew we say “shituf,” which is partnership.

Shamsi: How do you say it?

Nehemia: Shituf

Shamsi: Shituf, yeah.

Nehemia: Shituf is partnership.

Shamsi: Okay. Yes, partnership.

Nehemia: Shirk is probably the translation of the Hebrew.

Shamsi: I don't know.

Nehemia: It could be the other way around, if you think of it. I think ours came first, but whatever. And that came from this idea that in a certain period of rabbinical Judaism there was this thing of the primordial man. There was this idea that Jews were worshipping this primordial adam, this adam kadmon as kind of like a co-creator, almost, with God. And so, that was condemned by Jews as shituf, as partnership. God doesn't need partners.

Shamsi: Correct, God is one God. So, they say it's okay to call upon Ali, so where is the proof for that in the Quran? Clearly, God said do not call upon anyone besides Him.

Nehemia: Do they pray to Ali?

Shamsi: Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. I don't want to go too much in detail about them.

Nehemia: All right, that’s enough. So, in Exodus chapter 20, in the Torah, God says to the 600,000 Israelites standing at Mount Sinai, He says, “Anokhi Yehovah Elohekha, I am Yehovah, your God.” And when He reveals Himself to Moses, Moses says, “What's Your name?” He says, “Yehovah, Elohey Avraham, Elohey Yitzkhak, ve'Elohey Ya'akov.” “Yehovah, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob.” “Ze shemi le'olam veze zikhri ledor vador.” “This is My name forever, this is My memorial, this is My mention for all generations.” Is that the same as the God of the Quran?

Shamsi: I believe so, yeah. I believe the God of the Torah, the Bible, is the same God of the Quran, it’s one God. However, as I've mentioned, I believe some things have been attributed to God in the Torah, or in the Tanakh and the New Testament, which got free from it. For example, regrets.

Nehemia: Right, so it says in the Torah, “Vayinakhem Elohim,” or Yehovah, that he regretted making man. But then, it also says...

Shamsi: Not this one. The one I'm talking about is clearer, the one in Samuel, when God said to Samuel to appoint Saul as a King over the Israelites.

Nehemia: Well, they're both very big. One is the choosing of the house of David, and the other is the destruction of mankind in the flood. So, they're both pretty big incidents. And there's also a statement in Numbers, that God is not a man that he should regret.

Shamsi: Or that he should lie, which is the Book of Numbers.

Nehemia: That’s in Numbers.

Shamsi: 19:23, yeah. This one.

Nehemia: That’s a fact.

Shamsi: Yeah. The one I'm talking about is, He said, “I the Lord, greatly regretting for choosing Saul as a king.” Why? “Because he turned his back on Me.”

Nehemia: So, is your position God can't regret?

Shamsi: It's not about can or cannot.

Nehemia: He would not.

Shamsi: It’s a contradiction, because regret, we need to know the outcome of something. For example, I tell you, “You know what? Look after my camera.” By the time I go to the shop and I come back, you took my camera away. Now, I regret for letting him look after my camera, because I never knew you're going to do that. So, when you see the context in Samuel, the reason God regrets is because Saul turned his back on Him. But God knew Saul, so why is He regretting?

Nehemia: So, this is a question for philosophers. I'm a text person, not a philosopher.

Shamsi: Moses was not a philosopher.

Nehemia: No, he was not a philosopher. But this is really a kind of question that Maimonides writes extensively upon. Saadia Gaon, who was a Rabbi, he wrote extensively on these questions.

Shamsi: We’re going to ask him.

Nehemia: No, I don’t care about it. They debated the question of how can you have free will and God determines everything in advance? It’s an exact same subject. It’s a philosophical question I'm not really interested in. I don't understand quite how God works. I'll tell you that straight up front. My view of it is that God is perfect, and you agree with me on that.

Shamsi: This is called in Arabic “fitrah,” which is natural inclination. Every baby is born with it, that naturally God is perfect. Not because I'm a Muslim, but only because the natural inclination is like a padlock, and you need that padlock to be open. I believe the correct key for it is Islam.

Nehemia: I understand you believe that.

Shamsi: Not because I’m subjective, it’s objective. You know why? The proof that you believe, because God regretting, that is not the nature of the Most-High.

Nehemia: Do you believe the Qibla was originally Al-Quds and it was later changed to Mecca? So, God changed His mind, according to that.

Shamsi: No, God did not change His mind. But before we go to that, I’m saying there’s another one. Do you know how the language came about?

Nehemia: You mean the mixing of the languages at the Tower of Babel?

Shamsi: Yeah, how it came about?

Nehemia: I do, yes, in Genesis chapter 10 and 11.

Shamsi: That's it, 10 and 11. He looked upon the earth and He saw people speak in one language.

Nehemia: Right, and He said, “I'm gonna mix up their languages.”

Shamsi: What did they start doing? The started building tall towers.

Nehemia: The tower of Babel, yeah.

Shamsi: So, He said, “There's nothing to stop them right now.” So, He said, “Go down and confuse them.”

Nehemia: Mix up the languages, yes.

Shamsi: But the question is, God does no worry if you speak one language or two. Rather, that's a story clearly taken from the Sumerians, because Sumerians used to believe if you...

Nehemia: So, you don't believe in the Tower of Babel?

Shamsi: No, no, it's not about that. I don’t believe God is going…

Nehemia: Is that in the Islamic sources, the Tower of Babel? The mixing of the languages.

Shamsi: No, no, no.

Nehemia: So, you don't believe that?

Shamsi: No, I don't believe it, because I don't believe God is very worried about a group of people speaking one language and building tall towers. Do you know why? Because that was the belief of the Sumerians. The Sumerians believed that if you build tall towers, you'll be able to reach God and overthrow God. That shows that in the context, God was very worried…

Nehemia: That actually confirms the story is true. In other words, we have historical evidence of a group who believed they could build a tall tower, and then we see that all these languages are mixed up. Let's not get into that. We don’t want to get into that.

Shamsi: I don’t know where it’s written in Tanakh.

Nehemia: Tell me about the Qibla, the national prayer in Islam.

Shamsi: Okay, I’m going to give you about the Qibla. But first of all, clearly you can see that in the Old Testament, the way God is being spoken about is not correct. Even you, you want just to talk about Qibla, forget Qibla.

Nehemia: No, I'll tell you why I want to do Qibla. You brought up something where God said one thing and said, “Hey, I'm gonna now do something else.” And you have the exact same thing in Islam.

Shamsi: No, I’m not talking about that. I’m not talking about God changing legislation, because I believe God is the most-wise. So, some legislation was perfect for that time.

Nehemia: What was the word?

Shamsi: Legislation.

Nehemia: Legislation, okay.

Shamsi: So, legislation was perfect for that time. But afterwards, God will give you another legislation. There's no problem with that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about God regretting.

Nehemia: And I think we're in agreement on that. In other words, I believe that God revealed certain things to Noah, and then other things to Abraham, and other things to Isaac. And here's where we disagree. I believe the seal of prophecy was Moses, where in Deuteronomy chapter 4:2 he says, “Don't add or take away to anything that I command you.” And Amos, and Isaiah, and Jeremiah, none of them could change what was commanded to Moses. They could tell the people to repent, and they could tell them what would happen in the future if they don't repent. But they couldn't add new instruction that was different than what Moses had commanded. And you believe Mohammed was the last one. Is that right?

Shamsi: Yeah, but what I was gonna say... So you are which group? What do they call them, Samarites? What do you call them, “Samaryun” in Arabic?

Nehemia: No, no, I’m a Karaite, Karai.

Shamsi: So, you don’t believe in…?

Nehemia: No, no, no. I believe in all the Prophets of the Tanakh, but I don't believe the Prophet had the authority to add or take away commandments.

Shamsi: You believe all of them came to follow the Mosaic Law?

Nehemia: They came to call the people to repentance and tell them what would happen if they didn't repent.

Shamsi: Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong. You believe the five books, which are called the “Torah” was given by God to Moses.

Nehemia: Correct.

Shamsi: Correct. So, what about the story, the end of Deuteronomy, when it says Moses died, and he was 100 and such and the Israelites cried for him.

Nehemia: Joshua wrote that.

Shamsi: No, the Rabbis differ.

Nehemia: They do say Joshua.

Shamsi: Not all of them.

Nehemia: Not all of them, that's true. I'm not a Rabbinical Jew, so it doesn’t matter. I don't believe in the Talmud.

Shamsi: Forget about Talmud. So, I'm saying you don't have clear-cut proof, so therefore, you just crushed it yourself because you told me the Torah was given by God to Moses.

Nehemia: Well, it was revealed over a period of 40 years.

Shamsi: I understand that, but it was not by God to Moses.

Nehemia: Well, no, when it says, “And Yehovah spoke to Moses saying...” that is Yehovah speaking to Moses. When it says, “And Moses went up to the mountain,” that was presumably...Well, there are two opinions. One is that Moses wrote it in tears. I don't believe that. It's possible, but I don't believe it. The other is that Joshua wrote those verses, and Joshua is a very important figure.

Shamsi: Yeah, Yusha Bin Nun.

Nehemia: Yes, so Yusha Bin Nun, Yehoshua, when God spoke to Moses face-to-face in a tent, what's called the “Tent of Meeting,” Yehoshua, Yehoshua was the only one in the tent with Moses.

Shamsi: To be honest, that bit, the scholars differ. You can check…

Nehemia: Yes, there are definitely two opinions.

Shamsi: There are two opinions.

Nehemia: There's a statement, when you ask two Jews, you get three opinions.

Shamsi: That's a good one.

Nehemia: It's true.

Shamsi: Let's get back to the main point. I can establish clearly that what Allah said in the Quran, the Jewish Rabbis changed the book that God gave.

Nehemia: The Rabbis changed the book?

Shamsi: The Rabbis changed it, yeah.

Nehemia: Then why did Karaites in the Middle Ages accept it?

Shamsi: There are many people who accept the book, it doesn't mean it's right because you accept it.

Nehemia: We're getting sidetracked.

Shamsi: Okay, so let me give an example. What is the earliest manuscript that you have for the Torah?

Nehemia: The earliest complete manuscript, or partial?

Shamsi: Complete manuscript.

Nehemia: Earliest complete manuscript might be the Leningrad Codex from 1,005.

Shamsi: Yeah, which is literally 1,000 after Moses.

Nehemia: No, it's 2,500 years after Moses. The complete manuscript…

Shamsi: Of course, of course.

Nehemia: …because there are pieces of it in the Dead Sea Scrolls, like we have all of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls... And I don't know if this is actually correct, because there's a bunch of manuscripts that haven't been dated yet. Let's say it's for argument's sake, 1,005.

Shamsi: So, you're telling me you are taking someone's speech who came 1,000 years after Moses, and he says, “Moses said this, and Moses said that.”

Nehemia: Well, it's 2,500 years. Yes, correct.

Shamsi: You know what it is, it’s like me telling you Prophet Mohammed did this and did that without any person between me and Prophet Mohammed.

Nehemia: Oh no, there's lots in-between.

Shamsi: But you don't know them.

Nehemia: No, but I do have them. You want complete manuscripts, manuscripts which are complete.

Shamsi: Yeah, you don't know who wrote the complete manuscript.

Nehemia: I do know, it was Shmuel Ben Yaakov who was a scribe in Cairo.

Shamsi: No, you don’t know for the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Nehemia: No, for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I don't know the name of the scribe.

Shamsi: You don’t know it. You see what I’m saying?

Nehemia: That’s correct. And you know the names of the earliest scribes of the Quran?

Shamsi: That's the beauty of the Quran. We don't not rely on a manuscript that we found in a cave on the water.

Nehemia: We don't either. There were always Jewish scribes who transmitted it.

Shamsi: Anyway, the Allah send the Quran that the Quran is preserved within the breath of those who have been given knowledge. You understand? From day one, Prophet Muhammad, he used to receive the revelation...

Nehemia: So, I was talking to somebody earlier who told me a story about how...

Shamsi: Wait, let me finish. You're so excited, man.

Nehemia: I am excited. How often do I get to talk to a Muslim expert?

Shamsi: I’m not an expert, but anyway.

Nehemia: You seem very knowledgeable.

Shamsi: I'm an Orthodox Muslim. Many people think I'm very knowledgeable. You know, there are my teachers, even people like me, way more knowledgeable than me. So, I think if they come down to Speakers' Corner, they will look down at them, because if people think I'm knowledgeable, then I don't know about my teachers. Anyway, so my point here is that the Quran, from time of Mohammed, used to receive the Quran, he read out to his companions, Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Muawiya, who wrote it down, read it out back to him and memorized it. So, 100 of Sahaba memorized it. 1,000 Muslims, and the Muslims from day one used to sacrifice their life, their way of their family, to preserve the Quran. So, Quran was passed down to us through tradition.

Nehemia: Well, that's an interesting argument.

Shamsi: That's why the Jews in Iraq came up with the same thing, which was called Isnad.

Nehemia: Well, no, that wasn't in Iraq, that was in Tiberius. But anyway, let's not get bogged down in that. You mentioned how the proof of the Quran is people were willing to go to their deaths for it. One of the arguments of Christian apologists is that there were all these people who saw Jesus risen from the dead, and they were willing to go to their deaths when they were being tortured by the Romans, rather than...

Shamsi: You’re misrepresenting my argument.

Nehemia: I don't think so.

Shamsi: Yes, because I said certain companions wrote it. The Christians, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, none of them claim to be inspired by God. And we don't even know them very well. But we know Abu Bakr Al-Sadiq.

Nehemia: But there were Christians who were willing to be put to death rather than deny that Jesus was risen from the dead. You don't believe He ever died, right?

Shamsi: We believe He was raised up.

Nehemia: You do believe He was raised up?

Shamsi: Not raised from the dead. Allah raised Him before death.

Nehemia: So, He was never crucified?

Shamsi: He was never crucified. Can I ask you a question, as well, when we’re finished with this?

Nehemia: Sure.

Shamsi: Do you know Isaiah 42?

Nehemia: I do.

Shamsi: What does it talk about?

Nehemia: You tell me.

Shamsi: But you said you do.

Nehemia: Tell me what you want to take away from Isaiah 42.

Shamsi: Anyone has a Bible here? Okay, Isaiah 42 speaks about servants coming to glorify the Lord.

Nehemia: “Avdi Ya'akov,” yeah.

Shamsi: The description that's given here, one of the main points. There's many, to be honest. One of them is, let the witness and its cities lift up their voice, the village that Kedar inhabits.

Nehemia: Kedar is Mohammed.

Shamsi: No, no, Kedar isn’t Mohammed. “Let the inhabitants of Sela sing new song.” Who is Kedar? It's not Mohammed.

Nehemia: It's Ishmael.

Shamsi: No, it's not. You go to Genesis 25:13, and it said, “These are the sons of Ishmael.” The firstborn of Ishmael is Nebaioth, and the second one is Kedar. It’s not Ishmael, it’s Kedar. Also, Sela, the mountain Sela, if you Google it, it's in Saudi Arabia, in Medina, more specifically. So, who's this Prophet?

Nehemia: Okay, so that’s Mohammed. So, tell me about the Qibla. Why was it changed?

Shamsi: Because, first when the Qibla, Mecca, was under control of the Quraysh, they were praying toward what?

Nehemia: Towards Jerusalem.

Shamsi: Yes, correct. Of course, it’s correct. After, in Medina, Allah, he wanted badly... not badly, he wanted to pray towards Mecca. So, Allah told him to pray toward Mecca, because it was mentioned that was as a sign for him that he will overpower Mecca. So, Allah told him to, because Sela wanted to pray towards Mecca.

Nehemia: Okay, so you believe there’s gradual revelation. Is that right?

Shamsi: Yeah. I believe that.

Nehemia: And whatever the last revelation is, that's the truth, right? Is that fair?

Shamsi: No, all of them is the truth, because that was the truth for that time.

Nehemia: So, whatever is the final revelation is what's binding today.

Shamsi: That's it, you're right. You’re right, yeah. So, now we pray to Mecca, correct.

Nehemia: And I would say that everything is binding up to...

Shamsi: Sorry, can I give you a book. I give a book to a brother.

Nehemia: What is your book?

Shamsi: No, I just want to give you something as well, before you leave.

Nehemia: Do you have a book in English? Or are you Salafi?

Shamsi: You want to read it?

Nehemia: I do want to read it. Are you a Salafi?

Shamsi: I am a Salafi, yeah.

Nehemia: Are you of Saudi extraction?

Shamsi: Not Saudi extraction, because a Saudi…

Nehemia: No, no. I mean, did your parents or something come from Saudi Arabia?

Shamsi: No, I'm Algerian.

Nehemia: Algerian, okay.

Shamsi: I have Moroccan in me, as well.

Nehemia: Okay, so I've got to ask you here, if you're Salafi, tell me about Daesh. What is your view on this, because they were Salafi, too, right?

Shamsi: No, they’re not Salafi.

Nehemia: They’re not Salafi. What are they?

Shamsi: They are enemies of Salafi.

Nehemia: They’re enemies of Salafi. What is Salafi? Because a lot of people hear Salafi and they think, “Ooh, the Salafi, those are Al-Qaeda, Daesh.”

Shamsi: Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, you are correct. A Salafi, there's two, there are Salafis and Wahhabism.

Nehemia: They're different.

Shamsi: There's no such thing called Wahhabism. Salafis are called "Wahhabism.”

Nehemia: Right, in the West they call “Wahhabis.” Muslims, they call it “Salafi.”

Shamsi: Yes. So, let me clarify to you. “Salafi” means someone that follows the Quran, the prophetic tradition, according to the three generations. Why the three generations?

Nehemia: After Mohammed.

Shamsi: His companions, their students, and their students. Why? Because Prophet Mohammed, he said, “The best people are my people, and those who come after them, and those who come after them.” So, this is called “al-salaf al-ṣāliḥ,” in Arabic language, which is pious predecessors. Okay, are you with me?

Nehemia: So, this is why you said you don't pray to dead saints, because in certain parts of the world, they'll have a tomb of a Sheikh, and they'll come and they'll pray there. And they'll say, “No, no, no, we're praying to Allah, but we're praying at the tomb of the saint.”

Shamsi: Yeah, we don’t do that.

Nehemia: You don't accept that?

Shamsi: No, we don't accept that, because that's not a teaching of Prophet Mohammed, neither of his companions, and their students, and their students. So, that's what a Salafi is. A Salafi means I'm a person who follows the Quran, the prophetic tradition, and how his companions understood the Quran and the prophetic tradition. And Prophet Mohammed said to his daughter, “Bless Salaf onto you.”

Nehemia: I once had a conversation with a Sunni cleric, Sheikh, and he said to me, because I'm a Karaite Jew, he said, “You Karaites are just like the Salafi.” He said, “You don't think the dead person in the grave can hear you.” I said, “I don't know if he can hear me or not, but in Deuteronomy 18 it says, ‘don't pray to the dead.’”

Shamsi: That’s it, you’re right.

Nehemia: So, I'm forbidden to pray, whether he can hear me or not.

Shamsi: You’re right. We're not allowed to pray to the dead. We're allowed to pray to Allah. Even someone who is alive, I'm not allowed to pray to him. I pray to Allah. And those who come with this ideology were the so-called “Fatemiyoun.” They call it “Zainebiyoun,” which is a group of Shiism. They came with it in around 4th century…

Nehemia: In what century?

Shamsi: 4th century, according to the Islamic calendar.

Nehemia: So, the 10th century in the western calendar?

Shamsi: Yeah, 11th. They came up with it, started glorifying the righteous people, praying to them, saints. But we say, “No.” That's when it comes in so-called Wahhabism. So, 200 years ago, Mohammed Ben Abdul Wahab was born in Saudi. And in Saudi, there were a lot of people praying to the graves, and he started calling people, and said, “This is the wrong way.”

Nehemia: Were they praying at the grave of Mohammed?

Shamsi: I'm not sure about that, but I know there was a grave of one of the companions. There are many companions. He said, “No, that's not the correct teaching. The correct teaching is that you pray to Allah alone.” Then who aided him, is the forefather of that, the Saudi royal, who is called Ibn Saud, may Allah have mercy upon him.

Nehemia: Tell me, why is it that there are people who westerners say are Salafis, like ISIS and like you said, Al-Shabaab. Why do they think they have something to do with Salafis?

Shamsi: Some of them don’t know. Some of them are ignorant of it, but some of them do it on purpose, because they know the fastest growing semi-group is Salafism. So, they want to scare people away by saying to them, “Daesh are Salafi.” No, we are the first people to work against Bin Laden. Do you know which year? In the late ‘80s…

Nehemia: You were against Bin Laden.

Shamsi: Bin Laden in the late ‘80s, when America was working with him. One of our scholars is called Muqbil bin Hadi al-Wadi'i.

Nehemia: And he said something against Bin Laden.

Shamsi: He went against Bin Laden, yes. Likewise, another scholar, which is the Grand Mufti, the Grand Mufti of Saudi, Ibn Baz, in the ‘90s he went against bin Laden.

Nehemia: Wait, wait, so tell us what Grand Mufti is. Is he a leading religious figure or something?

Shamsi: A religious figure, yeah, of the state.

Nehemia: I've heard of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem but I don’t know of the…

Shamsi: In Jerusalem, it means that’s the one who you go back to.

Nehemia: There’s one in Saudi?

Shamsi: For every country. Saudi, in the ‘90s, their Grand Mufti, which is the Mufti of the state, he said Bin Laden is a misguided individual.

Nehemia: A misguided individual.

Shamsi: Misguided individual. Likewise, we wrote against the likes of Daesh, ISIS and others. We have many leaflets. You can see my videos.

Nehemia: In your videos you speak against ISIS?

Shamsi: Openly.

Nehemia: Thank you.

Shamsi: You’re welcome.

Nehemia: They're bad people.

Shamsi: Of course, without any doubt.

Nehemia: We can disagree on politics, but we agree on this. This man said to me in the beginning, “We're not gonna talk politics and Middle Eastern issues,” but this we agree on.

Shamsi: I'll tell you something. We have a table called a “Dawah Table.” We have one in America. We have one in Philadelphia, and we have one in Washington.

Nehemia: And what does it mean, a “Dawah Table?”

Shamsi: Dawah Table means we have a stall called “CC Dawah,” CC stalls.

Nehemia: Store?

Shamsi: Yeah, stall.

Nehemia: Oh, a stall.

Shamsi: Yeah, so we go out there teaching people about Islam, and we have banners warning against ISIS, and Boko Haram, and Al Qaeda, and Al-Shabaab.

Nehemia: So, if you had someone in your masjid, in your mosque who was saying things about ISIS?

Shamsi: We would kick him out, without any doubt.

Nehemia: Good for you.

Shamsi: Just even sitting down in a mosque and talking to the other people in a private way, we’ll kick him out.

Nehemia: Okay.

Shamsi: I’ll give you leaflets.

Nehemia: I really appreciate it. It was good talking to you.

Shamsi: Good talking to you. Look after yourself, man. Take care.

Nehemia: Bye-bye.

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