Hebrew Voices #70 – Sikh-ing God in Jerusalem

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Nehemia: I’m laughing, because I’m talking to this guy with a turban. And he’s talking about the Babylonian Talmud, and he’s using all the Hebrew words. Only in Jerusalem.

Sathari: Yeah.

Nehemia: Shalom, this is Nehemia Gordon with Hebrew Voices. I am here in Jerusalem with what, for me, is an unusual guest. His name is Sathari. He is a member of the Sikhs. And I want to say it’s the Sikh religion, would it be fair to call it?

Sathari: Yeah, Sikh religion is fair enough.

Nehemia: And he’s wearing a turban. And I was just walking with him down the old train tracks in the German Colony of Jerusalem, which is a very nice neighborhood. I live on the other side of the tracks. We’re walking down the tracks and these boys pointed to him and they asked me, “Is he an Indian Army officer?” Because they saw you wearing the turban, and in Israel that’s immediately identified as the Indian high-ranking officers who wear the turban. And you’re actually from New York, right?

Sathari: Yeah, I’m from Queens, New York.

Nehemia: You’re from Queens, New York, and he’s got the Queen’s accent. And he actually wasn’t raised a Sikh, he was raised Catholic. He’s going to tell his story. We’re going to find out what he’s doing in Israel. Why is a Sikh coming on a spiritual pilgrimage to Israel? That’s why I had to ask him to do this interview with me. You know, Hebrew Voices is about hearing different perspectives. So, Sathari, what was your given name?

Sathari: My given name is Kevin Harrington. I was born to an Irish family. I grew up in Flushing, New York, which was kind of a diverse neighborhood. I had a lot of friends, when I was a child, who were Jewish. I was exposed to Judaism very, very early.

Nehemia: And you studied with a Rabbi, didn’t you?

Sathari: Yeah, I studied with my friend’s father across the street. Strangely enough, initially, he thought I was Jewish. And then, subsequently, he didn’t care.

Nehemia: But you weren’t a Sikh at that point.

Sathari: No, I wasn’t a Sikh.

Nehemia: What were you?

Sathari: I was a Roman Catholic at that time. And my parents really didn’t object, do you know what I mean?

Nehemia: I don’t, because my father wasn’t thrilled that I became a Karaite.

Sathari: My father had a very liberal attitude towards religion, and they were very much into the American idea that you had the right to practice any religion you wanted to. And that was what you did in America.

Nehemia: I wish they would have talked to my dad when I was growing up. But anyway, go on.

Sathari: My grandfather was Irish Catholic, and people used to say to him, “Well, what about being an American?” He says, “You know, they have wars in Ireland, between the Catholics and Protestants.” And he says, “In America, the Protestants shoot at the king’s soldiers.” He says, “America is a very different place. You know, George Washington and all those…”

Nehemia: Wasn’t that like 200-something years ago?

Sathari: Yeah, but he still said that the people of America are different.

Nehemia: And that’s true, I guess.

Sathari: When people come to America, they become different about their spirituality. And so, I always felt that you have the right to pick your religion. There’s no reason, just because all your ancestors were Roman Catholics, that you have to be a Roman Catholic.

Nehemia: So, you were raised Roman Catholic. You studied with a Rabbi. How did you become a Sikh?

Sathari: I have this policy of my own, which is that there’s a lot of suffering in the world and I don’t help if it makes me suffer. So, I wasn’t happy being a Catholic. Actually, I went to a Catholic college and I studied religion.

Nehemia: You went to a Catholic college.

Sathari: Right, and I majored in religion and I studied theology. And I just came to the conclusion that there were some major things about Christianity that I didn’t believe. And then I came to the conclusion that I was a monotheist.

Nehemia: And a lot of my listeners will say, “Well, you were never a Christian because you were Catholic.” But whatever, that’s not the discussion for today.

Sathari: I don’t want to discuss it.

Nehemia: So, you came to the conclusion you were a monotheist. And Catholics aren’t monotheists, according to you.

Sathari: Well, I think that they are and they aren’t, you know what I mean? The Jewish Rabbi told me that it’s an acceptable form of monotheism for non-Jewish people.

Nehemia: This is the Rabbi that you studied with growing up.

Sathari: Right. He said it’s an acceptable form of monotheism for non-Jewish people, but not for Jewish people.

Nehemia: And wasn’t this the Rabbi you were telling me before, that survived the Holocaust?

Sathari: Yeah, he survived the Holocaust.

Nehemia: He came to New York.

Sathari: He came to New York and he had his own business for a while. He had a couple of kids and some of them were my friends. And the way I got into learning Judaism was, his son couldn’t play stickball with us until after he’d listened to his records for his Bar Mitzvah. So, we used to go over and wait, and I memorized his blessings and haftorahs before he did.

Nehemia: That’s awesome. Do you remember any of them?

Sathari: No, but I’m sure that if somebody starts to say them…

Nehemia: Barkhu et Adonay hamevorakh. All right. Anyway, go on. That’s awesome. So, you’re an Irish kid who’s learning the haftorah. And now you’ve become a Sikh. Wait, so you decided you were a monotheist, and so, you didn’t want to be a Catholic anymore?

Sathari: Well, I didn’t believe that Jesus was God.

Nehemia: Oh, so that was your issue with Catholicism.

Sathari: That was my issue. And also, I have an issue that I’m really sort of against the priesthood and this whole heavily organized religion.

Nehemia: So, the Sikh religion isn’t heavily organized?

Sathari: No, we don’t officially have any clergy. We just have people who are called “readers.” They go and they learn to read the Scriptures correctly, but you really don’t have to.

Nehemia: What are your Scriptures?

Sathari: We have Scriptures which were compiled by the fifth Sikh teacher. And they are the writings of the Sikh teachers and the writings of some Muslims and Hindus who are of the same mind.

Nehemia: Okay, and Sikh is spelled S-I-K-H. What does that word mean in some language? What language is it?

Sathari: It’s related to the Sanskrit word “shisha,” which means that we’re disciples. We’re disciples of God.

Nehemia: So, Sikh means a “disciple of God.” That’s interesting. So, how did you go from, you don’t believe in Catholicism to you’re wearing a turban? How did you get to that?

Sathari: I was in college, and I had this very dynamic teacher for comparative religion, John Sexton, who is now the president of NYU. And he went over Sikhism really quickly, because there’s only 20 million Sikhs in the world.

Nehemia: And I think that’s more than there are Jews. Go on.

Sathari: Who’s counting?

Nehemia: It depends who’s counting, actually.

Sathari: So, I said, “This is really cool.” It fit my requirements of being monotheistic. It didn’t have a big clergy thing. It didn’t violate the mitzvot ben Noach, which are the seven commandments of Noah.

Nehemia: So, at this point you’re in college and you believe, I guess, what the Rabbi you studied with taught you. You believe in the Seven Laws of Noah. What are the Seven Laws of Noah? I know what they are, but tell the people.

Sathari: You should worship one God. You shouldn’t blaspheme God’s name. You shouldn’t kill people. You shouldn’t rape people. You shouldn’t steal from people, things like that. So, basically, he used to tell me that they’re the 10 commandments without Shabbos.

Nehemia: Oh, that’s really interesting. Okay, nice.

Sathari: And he used to say there aren’t seven commandments from Noah. He says there’s a lot more. He says other people have different things.

Nehemia: As I understand it, the Rabbis actually count eight, but then there’s different ways. But there are eight core commandments and then there are different ways of interpreting them. And of course, the only place to find them is in the Talmud.

Sathari: I had this very strong belief that religion had to be really simple enough that you could give it to somebody like, you know, Hillel; on one foot. Rabbi Hillel, they asked him to give them the whole Torah on one foot. And that really struck me. It’s like, “This is important. You can’t have a zillion books and expect farmers and workers to read them and be saved.”

Nehemia: And what was Hillel’s answer?

Sathari: Basically, almost the same thing Jesus said. He said, “Love God with your whole heart, and don’t do unto others what you don’t want done to you.”

Nehemia: So, you weren’t against Jesus. Just coming from the Catholic perspective, you had a problem with what?

Sathari: The whole church, you know, the whole sacramental factory-type of thing. It being tied into a political structure that I wasn’t really so happy with. Do you know what I mean?

Nehemia: I don’t entirely, but I guess that I get it. I’ve never been a Catholic, so I don’t entirely know, but I’ve read about it.

Sathari: Let’s say, for example, they’ve never successfully stopped the Christians from killing the Jews.

Nehemia: Well, that I know about.

Sathari: I mean, you know, that’s sort of like, it’s a bad habit, you know?

Nehemia: Yeah. Okay, let’s move on. So, you’ve taken this college course and you…

Sathari: And I found out about Sikhism. And there was no Internet or anything like that.

Nehemia: Hold on a second. So, there was no internet back then, so this was when?

Sathari: Like the 1970’s. I lived in New York City. And I’m a book person, and always have been a book person, and I know where to find stuff. So, I went to the Fifth Avenue library, which is the central research library, and they had an oriental and eastern…

Nehemia: Is that the one that’s in all those movies? There’s lions out front; is that the one?

Sathari: Yeah. It was in Ghostbusters.

Nehemia: Oh, it was in Ghostbusters. Okay, I know that library from Ghostbusters. Go on.

Sathari: I went up there and the person who was in the room was very knowledgeable. And a few years earlier, the Sikh Scripture was completely translated.

Nehemia: What’s the Sikh Scripture called?

Sathari: It’s called the “Guru Granth Sahib.” Guru Granth Sahib. Guru means “that which takes you from darkness to light.” And Granth means like a knot. It used to mean the knot that ties the book together when the books used to be palm leaves. And Sahib means Lord. So, it is the knowledge that takes you from darkness to light to overcome your obstacles to finding God.

Nehemia: Okay. I’m just so much happier right now with the word “Tanakh,” or “Mikra.”

Sathari: So, I went there and I read the whole book. You couldn’t take the books out. They were like eight volumes, and I read them, and I made notes. I lived in Flushing, and in Flushing, some of the first Sikhs were beginning to come to the United States because they’d changed the immigration laws in 1963. So, I’d see them on the buses or the trains, and they had turbans, and I would bother them. And I’d say, “Yeah, I want to find out about your religion,” and the Indian Sikhs don’t proselytize so much. So, they invited me to their house, where they would…

Nehemia: Are there some Sikhs that do proselytize?

Sathari: Yeah, the American Sikhs.

Nehemia: Oh, like you.

Sathari: Yeah.

Nehemia: He hasn’t tried to convert me yet, though.

Sathari: We just tell people what our religion is about. Usually, people find it a little bit refreshing, sometimes, and say, “Oh, okay.” But anyway, we teach Yoga, the American Sikhs teach Kundalini Yoga, which has techniques for meditating on God’s name.

Anyway, if you want, everybody can find that, that’s easy. So, I read the books, and I started to talk to Indians in my neighborhood. And I got invited to their houses, when they would sing hymns and they would meditate, chant and stuff. And finally, some lady told me, “You know, there’s a Sikh from India teaching Americans how to meditate. And he has an ashram,” which is sort of like a residential place.

Nehemia: So, meditation is an important part of the Sikh religion.

Sathari: It is, and the most basic part of our meditation is to chant God’s name.

Nehemia: Wow. Is the name Yehovah?

Sathari: You could use that name if you want, yes.

Nehemia: So, in your religion you could chant the name “Yehovah” and that’d be okay. But there are also other names, probably.

Sathari: There are other names, too, and we don’t think that our names are more bona fide than your names.

Nehemia: Okay, and I’m not trying, I really hope this doesn’t insult you, but would you then be able to chant the name “Ba’al,” which was the Canaanite God?

Sathari: I don’t know.

Nehemia: And what about the name “Jesus?” Would you be able to chant that name?

Sathari: If you believe that Jesus was God, yes.

Nehemia: Okay, so then, why did you leave Catholicism? I’m not trying to be funny here.

Sathari: Because I don’t believe that God incarnates.

Nehemia: Oh, okay. What does that… I know what it means.

Sathari: It means that God doesn’t become a person. I think that God is a super transcendent being, who… being a human being would be a contradiction.

Nehemia: Okay, that’s interesting. Go on.

Sathari: So, they told me about Yogi Bhajan, who had come to the United States, and he was teaching yoga and teaching people how to meditate on the name. And the American students started to bother him, because he had a turban and a beard, about Sikhism, and he started teaching Sikhism. And he had an ashram in Brooklyn. So, I went and visited them. And I went there, and I went to classes for a couple of years. And a couple of years later, like in the late 70’s, I moved in.

Nehemia: You moved into this Ashram in Brooklyn?

Sathari: In Brooklyn, yeah. It was a brownstone, and it was like 30 people squeezed into one brownstone.

Nehemia: I don’t really know what a brownstone is, but okay.

Sathari: A brownstone is like a townhouse. But it just has a front; it doesn’t have a side or anything.

Nehemia: Gotcha, okay.

Sathari: And it has a small backyard in the back. It’s a very New York sort of thing. So, we lived in Brooklyn and we did yoga. And we Sikhs believe that you have to work for a living, so I had a job.

Nehemia: It helps.

Sathari: I had a job. I had an income.

Nehemia: Okay, what was your job?

Sathari: I became a cleaner for the New York City Transit Authority. I used to clean buses, and then I got promoted to train operator.

Nehemia: Wow! And I’ll be honest, I still haven’t figured it out. You believe there’s one God, but His name isn’t important. It’s whatever you believe His name is…

Sathari: The Sikhs use a number of names, but the one that’s most important they use is Waheguru, which means that “God is the wonderful teacher.”

Nehemia: Is that a name, or is that just the title?

Sathari: Well, that’s His title, His name.

Nehemia: Do you believe that his God is the same God as the God of the Hebrew Bible, of the Tanakh?

Sathari: We believe that there’s a generic God, that the same God is for everybody. I think that people have to be judged by their intentions. What is your intention? Do you know what I’m saying? If you’re saying, “Hey, I’m going to worship Ba’al because the other guy’s not listening to me,” do you know what I mean?

Nehemia: Okay, interesting.

Sathari: Or there’s a book called Me’am Lo’ez.

Nehemia: Wait, that’s a Hebrew book. What are you talking about? How do you know about Hebrew books? Because you studied with a Rabbi? It’s a Sephardic book. How did your Hasidic Rabbi know about it?

Sathari: He said that people started to worship aspects of God in nature.

Nehemia: This is the Jewish book you’re quoting now.

Sathari: Yeah, yeah.

Nehemia: Amazing.

Sathari: And so, there are people who actually say, “I am not gonna worship God, I’m going to try to use this angel or this devil or this other intermediary being.”

Nehemia: So, worshipping an intermediary, that’s against the Sikh religion?

Sathari: Yeah, and worshipping people, too. So, the Jewish campaign for monotheism has been rather successful, and we don’t have people doing that anymore.

Nehemia: So, do you believe that the God that the Muslims worship is the same God you worship?

Sathari: Yes, I do. God the Father is the same.

Nehemia: Okay, so when it comes to the Catholics, you would say that when they worship God the Father it’s the same God. But when they worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit, that that’s a different God, or maybe the…

Sathari: To me, the Holy Spirit could be the Shekhina, you know?

Nehemia: It’s really the same thing as God the Father. All right, so what are you doing here in Jerusalem, Mr. Sikh? What did you come to seek in Jerusalem?

Sathari: I’ve always wanted to come to Israel. And as a kid I was exposed to this… It was a very important part of my personal evolution, that is, the Jewish people. My wife calls Judaism…

Nehemia: And she’s a Sikh, right?

Sathari: Yeah.

Nehemia: Was she born a Sikh?

Sathari: No, no. She’s a convert, too. She calls it my fallback religion.

Nehemia: And you told me something before about your walk in the direction of Judaism. Do you want to share about that?

Sathari: Yeah. I sort of tried to convert to Judaism, but I was a hippie, and I didn’t really have my act together enough to live in a neighborhood near a synagogue, and have a job off on Sabbath, and make a lot of money. And it was the ‘70’s and it was very difficult.

Nehemia: And it’s really difficult. Jews make it very difficult to convert. And it’s interesting, Christians will go out there and they’ll, you know, meet someone on the street…And this might be different in different denominations. But in some denominations, they’ll meet some stranger, tell them about Jesus, and five minutes later the guy will be a Christian, or a minute later. And Judaism, they really make you jump through a lot of hoops. So, you weren’t able to jump through the hoops, is basically what you’re telling me.

Sathari: And one of the things that bothered me about it was… And I don’t want to offend the Jewish people…

Nehemia: Go ahead.

Sathari: The person I studied with used to say, “Why don’t you go look in the Talmud what it says about conversions and geirim.” And it doesn’t say, “Go through this long process.” It says, “Teach them some of the minor commandments and some of the major commandments.”

Nehemia: So basically, what you’re saying is that the religious institutions today make people jump through hoops which aren’t even in the Talmud, certainly aren’t in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible. And so, it’s just manmade religion, even by their own definition.

Sathari: Right.

Nehemia: I don’t know that a lot of people would necessarily dispute that, even in the Orthodox camp. Meaning, the joke in Israel is that if Ruth the Moabite showed up at Ben Gurion Airport and said, “I’m Jewish. I’m going to be the ancestor of King David,” she’d be deported.

Sathari: And for me, although my family is Irish, I’ve always felt an intense sort of concern about what happens to Jewish people.

Nehemia: So, would you say you have a love for the Jewish people?

Sathari: Yeah, I would. I would say that. I remember back in 1967, when the first war was going on.

Nehemia: That was the Six Day War for you young people.

Sathari: And everybody was saying to me in high school, “Oh, Israel is gonna be wiped out.” And I said, “Oh, that’s gonna be horrible,” do you know what I mean? Even my father was concerned like, “This just can’t happen.”

Nehemia: And I’ve studied the history of it. And one of the things that really… I have a hard time saying this without tearing up. I’ll try. So, before the Six Day War, they tasked a group of gravediggers to dig up Independence Park, to dig thousands of graves, because that’s what they thought the casualties would be. Independence Park is in the heart of Jerusalem. And then the people didn’t die, we won the war. But we thought it would be a wholesale massacre of tens of thousands of people.

Sathari: One of the things that we overlook when we look at Israel at war, is that the Independence War and the war of 1967, and the Yom Kippur War, was that yeah, although the Yom Kippur War was a tactical victory, the number of casualties was devastating for Israel.

Nehemia: Actually, around 3,000 people died, which is about the number that died in 9/11. And imagine, Israel at the time was a country with three million people. Losing 3,000 men versus America and, you know, anyone who was alive knows how horrible 9/11 was, and it was horrible… 3,000 people in a country of 300 million. So, imagine how much worse it was. I mean, nobody who lived in Israel at the time… there was no one who didn’t know someone or know someone, who knew someone by second degree of separation, who died in the war. Everybody knew somebody.

Sathari: But I don’t think there are any Israelis alive today who don’t have either a family member or know somebody’s family who lost somebody in any of the wars of Israel.

Nehemia: Right, and it’s very interesting. In my generation, one of the most common names for Israeli women was “Maya,” which you think, “Oh, that’s maybe some European name.” But actually, it’s an acronym for “Milkhemet Yom HaKippurim,” which is the Yom Kippur War. And they would often name a girl Maya after her father who died in the war, or her uncle, or someone in the family. It’s a very common name.

Sathari: But people forget, because the victory in 1967 was so overwhelming that most people thought Israel was gonna be wiped out.

Nehemia: Yeah. So, you’ve had this love for Israel. Why did that inspire you to come to Jerusalem? What are you seeking here?

Sathari: I’ve always wanted to come to Jerusalem, and I now had the money to do so. The means were there, and my wife said to me, “Why don’t you just go to Israel? You keep saying you want to go to Israel.” So, I looked at the calendar, and I saw, “Ah, there’s no holidays between Simkhat Torah and Hanukkah.”

Nehemia: Okay, so that’s a good time.

Sathari: And I said, “So this is a nice spot for me to get in, because I don’t like crowds.”

Nehemia: Wait a second. You told me you work in the subway in New York, and you don’t like crowds?

Sathari: I drive the train. I’m up in front in my little cab.

Nehemia: So, you’re a New Yorker and you’re a Sikh wearing a turban, and you’re driving a train in New York. And where were you on 9/11?

Sathari: Well, on 9/11 I operated the number four train, which goes up Lexington Avenue in Manhattan. It’s the most used line in the subway. I think we move more people on the Lexington Avenue line than live in most American cities. So anyway, I was coming up town, and when I was in Brooklyn, a friend of mine said to me, “You know, some plane crashed into the World Trade Center.” And we all thought it was a Cessna, or some small…

Nehemia: That’s what I thought. And you’re underground, right?

Sathari: Yeah, underground. So, I get to Fulton Street, and all the signals go red. And all of a sudden, I hear this loud noise. It sounded like a bunch of cannons going off, like in sequence. Like somebody was doing a salute, going “Boom, boom, boom.”

Nehemia: And what was it?

Sathari: I can only speculate it was the floors collapsing onto each other.

Nehemia: Okay, meaning this is when the first building collapsed.

Sathari: Yeah. And so, when they lost electrical power for the signals, the signals stop all the trains. So, my train went into emergency. They called the emergency brake supply and it came to a stop. And I was halfway into this station called the Fulton Street Station, which is about one block away from the World Trade Center. And like, soon thereafter, the whole station started to fill with this white dust.

So, I didn’t know what happened. My boss came along, and I said to him, “Well, I’m gonna go through all the signals. Put them down so I can go through them. We’re gonna do something to bypass them, and I’ll go up to Brooklyn Bridge, the next stop.” “We don’t want anybody going up to Brooklyn Bridge, it’s too dangerous,” he says. “Go back to Wall Street.” So, I moved the train back to Wall Street.

Nehemia: So, you’re backing up the train.

Sathari: No, I went to the other end. That’s how we do it on the subway.

Nehemia: Oh, okay. But you’re going the opposite direction.

Sathari: Yeah, and people were really good. They asked me, “Can you turn the air conditioning off? Because it’s blowing all the white dust in here.”

Nehemia: This was very tense. At that point, did anybody know that this was an Islamic terrorist attack?

Sathari: I didn’t hear that at all.

Nehemia: You didn’t? Okay. When they found out, what was the reaction to you as a Sikh? Did they think that you were a Muslim?

Sathari: What happens was, I was the person they depended upon to get out of the subway. So, it really wasn’t the point to start picking, you know what I mean?

Nehemia: But does that happen, that you’re sometimes confused with a Muslim because you wear a turban?

Sathari: Sometimes, yeah. But not often.

Nehemia: Because Muslims actually don’t really wear turbans today, right?

Sathari: They don’t wear turbans.

Nehemia: And you were telling me you were walking out of Damascus Gate, and you had an experience where you basically were harassed by these Muslims because they realized that you were a Sikh.

Sathari: What happened was, I came out of Damascus Gate. And I was trying to find out where to get the bus to go up to Mount of Olives because I wanted to see the places that Jesus was at up there. Because I do respect Jesus very deeply, as someone who took Jewish ethics and really synthesized them into, like, a short presentation. And just as an aside, when I was a teenager, I studied mussar, which is a Jewish…

Nehemia: That’s a Hebrew word. Mussar is Jewish ethics, okay.

Sathari: And it’s a whole method of self-examination that’s done. I find it…

Nehemia: I’m laughing, because I’m talking to this guy with a turban. And he’s talking about the Babylonian Talmud, and he’s using all the Hebrew words. Only in Jerusalem.

Sathari: Anyway, I’m looking for the bus to get up to Mount of Olives. And it was Friday, and Friday is the day that the Muslims have their group prayer.

Nehemia: And this is in Jerusalem at the Damascus Gate

Sathari: And there already was lots of tension around the group prayer, because it had become a very political act, at least from my understanding.

Nehemia: Well, what happens is they have their group prayer, and then they have the sermon. And the sermon comes in, and it talks about how all these horrible things are done to Muslims. It depends where they are. I’m sure if they’re in northern India, it’s the horrible things that are being done by Sikhs. But here, it’s the horrible things that are being done by the Jews. And then they come out of the mosque and they’re all whipped up.

And I used to live in this Jewish area that overlooked an Arab area, and I literally would go on my balcony and I’d look down and see them come out of the mosque. And they would come out enraged and there was a riot every Friday. You could set your clock to the riot. Anyway, so you come out of Damascus Gate…

Sathari: I’m walking along, I have my turban on. You know, I’m just this bearded fat guy from New York.

Nehemia: With a turban.

Sathari: With a turban. And this guy has a, I always say it wrong. Jabilia? A long Arab white shirt on.

Nehemia: Jalabiya, I guess.

Sathari: Jalabiya, or something. I don’t know. Anyway, he has his long shirt on, he has a little turban on, he has a beard.

Nehemia: Is it a turban?

Sathari: He had a little turban on.

Nehemia: But nothing like your turban. Yours is a very distinct turban.

Sathari: My turban is seven meters long.

Nehemia: Is it, seriously?

Sathari: Yeah.

Nehemia: That’s like 21 feet long.

Sathari: Yeah.

Nehemia: Really?

Sathari: Yeah, we just fold it on top of each other to get this. But anyway, his was small, and he saw me. And it was the week after the President of India had come to Israel.

Nehemia: And most Sikhs live in India, right?

Sathari: Right, and the Sikhs are sort of like a very important part of the Indian defense industry, and the Army, and the Navy, and air force.

Nehemia: And you said there’s 20 million Sikhs. I think it’s over a billion Indians. But you’re saying they’re an important part of the Indian…

Sathari: Right. Sikhism was founded in the midst of a fundamentalist Islamic empire.

Nehemia: Ooh, that can be dangerous.

Sathari: And so, several of the Sikhs were martyred. And the Sikh gurus felt that religion should not be a state issue. And since they were killing so many people… some scholars like Will Durant would put the number at 50 to100 million Indians killed in the 1,000 years that the Muslim empires were in northern India.

Nehemia: Woah, hold on a second. The Muslims killed between 50 and 100 million Indians over a period of 1,000 years rule in India. I gotta say, the Muslims killed more Indians than they killed Jews. Wow.

Sathari: Yeah. All over northern India, wherever you go to Hindu holy places, there’s a mosque. And those figures… I don’t know if they’re true or not, but they come from Will Durant.

Nehemia: He’s like a scholar.

Sathari: He’s like a scholar, but from a while back.

Nehemia: But basically, they’ve killed so many that there’s definitely a feeling that, “Look, we gotta defend ourselves.” In other words, defending yourselves is part of your religion.

Sathari: Right. But we also defended the Hindus too, because one of the Sikh Gurus was this fundamentalist Emperor, Aurangzeb, and he killed lots of people.

Nehemia: Wait, what religion was he?

Sathari: He was a Muslim fundamentalist who killed a lot of people, okay.

Nehemia: He was a Muslim.

Sathari: And he was also a Sufi too, strangely enough. And the Sikh Guru wrote him a letter and told him he’d like to come and talk to him about religious issues. And he came and said, “There’s no compulsion in religion. Even your book says that you can’t be killing all these people.” And he was a follower of a Sufi teacher, and he had a book that he always carried that was written by the Sufi Saint.

Nehemia: And Sufi is an Islamic mystical something.

Sathari: And anyway, he ended up chopping the head off of the Sikh Guru.

Nehemia: Oh, because it says in the Quran that there’s no compulsion in religion, so he cut the guy’s head off.

Sathari: Right. Some people say that verse was abrogated by later verses in Medina.

Nehemia: Oh, that’s interesting. This is for our program that we’re gonna do on Islam. But basically, this is one of the things they’ll do. The Muslims will quote you a verse from the Quran and say, “Look, it’s peaceful.” But what they don’t tell you is that in Islamic theology and understanding, there are actually verses in the Quran that are invalidated by other verses. And that’s a whole separate discussion. But that’s really interesting. Bottom line is, the way that Islam is practiced is, they cut the guy’s head off for not being a Muslim.

Sathari: Right, so we feel that he went to… Because at the time, that Emperor was massacring the Brahmins who were the Priesthood of Indians, and he was massacring the Brahmins in Kashmir.

Nehemia: But those are Hindus, and you’re Sikhs.

Sathari: No, but we don’t believe in religions. We believe that all people are the children of God.

Nehemia: That part I’ll say Amen about, yeah.

Sathari: And we believe that all people are souls. And all religions are just schools to teach people how to enhance their relationship with God.

Nehemia: Okay, and there we’ll probably depart, because I believe the Tanakh is the perfect word of God, but okay.

Sathari: We believe that you should believe that.

Nehemia: Okay, I appreciate you do that. You had mentioned that there was a Sikh leader who said that if you’re ever going to deal with Muslims, you better be more heavily armed than they are.

Sathari: Yeah, the Sikhs have sort of like developed this attitude of, it’s not good to have inferior military capacity.

Nehemia: And that’s why they’re so prominent in the Indian military, okay.

Sathari: There’s also a concept in Indian religion, which Gandhi popularized, called “Ahimsa,” which means “non-violence.” And all Indian religions, Sikhs included, believe that non-violence is the basis of ethics. But we also believe that stopping violent people is a form of non-violence. We are against compulsion in religion and conquering in the name of God.

Nehemia: And compulsion in religion in plain English is, a sword to your neck, convert to Islam or die. That’s basically what it is.

Sathari: Or putting pressure on people. You have to pay special taxes, you can be enslaved, you’re a second-class citizen.

Nehemia: And by Islamic law, all Christians and Jews are second-class citizens. Well, certainly Hindus don’t even have that option, they just have to convert or die. And what about Sikhs?

Sathari: Well, Sikhs, we have a religion that began after the Prophet Muhammad. So, that’s sort of like anti-Islamic in itself, because they believe that Prophet Muhammad is the last…

Nehemia: So, that’s interesting. How many Sikhs lived in Pakistan before…

Sathari: Well, about 60 percent of the Sikhs lived in what is now Pakistan.

Nehemia: And how many live there now?

Sathari: About 10,000. They live up in the mountains.

Nehemia: And what happened to all the rest?

Sathari: They were driven out or forcibly converted, and their property was stolen.

Nehemia: Or killed.

Sathari: Or raped, yeah.

Nehemia: The religion of peace. Islam, right.

Sathari: Well, the name of the country was Pakistan. And “Pak” means pure, so they couldn’t have idolatrous unbelievers in the country.

Nehemia: And they consider Sikhs to be idolatrous unbelievers?

Sathari: Well, they consider us that we’re…

Nehemia: At least unbelievers.

Sathari: Well, they think we’re unbelievers. They accept that we’re monotheistic, but they believe that you have to be a follower of the Prophet Mohammed because he was the last Prophet. We don’t consider our teachers are actually Prophets.

Nehemia: You don’t?

Sathari: We consider them teachers. And Prophet is a different category.

Nehemia: Well, I don’t consider your teachers to be Prophets, either, so we’re in agreement on that. No offense.

Sathari: Indian tradition has its own…

Nehemia: But it’s a different concept. Okay, I get it.

Sathari: A different concept, yeah. We believe that God is the ultimate Guru.

Nehemia: Okay. I don’t even know if I can agree with that or not, because I’m not sure what Guru means, but okay.

Sathari: It means a teacher. He’s the ultimate source of all information and life.

Nehemia: He certainly is the source of all information and all life and everything in the universe.

Sathari: Right. So, the Sikhs were driven out of Pakistan. Lots of people were killed, many people were converted. I actually have a guy I work with who’s a Muslim, and his grandfather was a Sikh. The Sikhs go back to Pakistan to visit holy places, because most of the major holy places in Sikhism were in Pakistan, and they were destroyed.

Nehemia: Oh, wow.

Sathari: So, there were hundreds of holy places.

Nehemia: And Pakistan means the pure…

Sathari: Land.

Nehemia: The pure land, and they had to purify it of Sikhs.

Sathari: Of idolatry. They drove all the Hindus out, as well. And the strange thing is that they didn’t want the untouchables to leave, the people who clean the toilets and things, and clean the sewers.

Nehemia: So, they forcibly converted them?

Sathari: No, they made them become Catholics.

Nehemia: Really?

Sathari: Yeah, or Church of England.

Nehemia: I didn’t know that. Wow, I’m learning stuff about India and Pakistan.

Sathari: This is a very volatile issue in India, because the government of India is a secular government and they don’t talk about religion this way.

Nehemia: They don’t?

Sathari: Because you just can’t walk in the room without…

Nehemia: But you’re a New Yorker, so you can talk about it.

Sathari: You can’t walk in the room without stepping on something.

Nehemia: So, you’re a Sikh in New York and you come to Jerusalem and look, if I speak to a Christian and say, “Why did you come to Jerusalem?” They’d say, “Jesus was here.” And if they’re really a Christian who knows their Bible, they’ll say, “The first Temple is here and the Second Temple is here, it’s the place where Yehovah put His name forever.” A Muslim will say there’s the night ride of Mohammed here, and he prayed here. What is a Sikh seeking in Jerusalem?

Sathari: Well, you know, I see the world religion as monotheistic.

Nehemia: So, what are you seeking in Jerusalem?

Sathari: The Jewish people I find, and always through my life, have been sort of like the Sikhs’ compatriot monotheists, and it’s a very clear form of monotheism. There are other religions where it’s not so clear, but the intention is there.

And I’ve always heard about these Biblical holy people, and I heard about the Temple and I wanted to come here. And I feel that there are holy places on the earth, and they help maintain the spiritual environment to the earth. They’re sort of like acupuncture points on the earth, and if they’re not properly maintained, they cause trouble in the world and they amplify things. So, things get really out of hand, because people can’t handle the spiritual energy. It’s sort of like, to talk to your Christian audience, when Jesus says, “Don’t throw pearls before swine.” They can’t deal with the transcendental energy, the apparent presence of God in a holy place. And Jerusalem is one of those places, I think everybody agrees on that.

Nehemia: So, you as a Sikh agree that you can sense here the apparent presence of God.

Sathari: Yes, of course. I mean, you’d have to be blind not to.

Nehemia: I’m with you on that. But there are a lot of blind people, unfortunately. Although, you know what? Yeah, you’re right.

Sathari: And even in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, it’s a very special place. A lot of very devotional people came here for thousands and thousands of years and have deposited that residue of devotional energy there.

Nehemia: We’re gonna disagree on the source of the energy, because I think it comes from the Creator of the Universe…

Sathari: I think it comes from God, yeah.

Nehemia: …and not from people who have the ability to put it there.

Sathari: I think what happens is that God sort of understands that we’re not going to really ever have a perfect knowledge of God. He works with us.

Nehemia: I have a different concept. My understanding from the Prophets of the Hebrew Bible is, to know God is to actually have this intimate experience with Him, and relationship with Him. Because “know” in Hebrew is more than just a knowledge. You know, if you think about the verse that Adam knew Eve, and obviously, that also involved other things. But to know God is really to be in this intimate relationship with Him, and it’s not just intellectual. But okay, we’re talking about your perspective.

Sathari: In Sikhism we have several devotional moods, which are from just being God’s servant to being God’s friend, to being a protector of God’s cause, to even God as your lover.

Nehemia: Okay, let’s move on right past that.

Sathari: Don’t you have that in Song of Songs, Shir HaShirim?

Nehemia: Look, there’s definitely a metaphor in the Tanakh about God being the husband and Israel being the bride. And obviously, Christians have a concept about that as well. But…

Sathari: It’s a metaphor.

Nehemia: It’s a metaphor. Okay, but what are your impressions here, of Israel?

Sathari: Well, I’ve always appreciated the Jewish devotional mood. I feel like I can access it from having studied as a kid, when we used to sing songs, and we would do prayers on Sabbath. And he would talk with really great… I’m gonna say this word wrong, with great kavana.

Nehemia: Kavana is intent, in intensity.

Sathari: Yeah, and he would just be so intent.

Nehemia: This is the Rabbi that you told me of?

Sathari: Yeah, it was really just great to be with him when he was in that mood.

Nehemia: I think this is so interesting, especially since the Rabbi you studied with was a Hassidic rabbi. And then you went from the Hassidic Rabbi to the Sikh Guru, who is called, again…

Sathari: Guru Nanak.

Nehemia: Guru Nanak. And it’s interesting, because I come from the non-Hassidic tradition, and there is something about the Hassidim which parallels… And I don’t know enough about Sikhs to say, but definitely the Indian concept of a Guru, the Hindu concept of a Guru.

Sathari: Definitely, yeah.

Nehemia: In my non-Hassidic tradition, we would say that in the pejorative. It’s very interesting. Rabbi Carlebach, who was a great Rabbi…

Sathari: Who I knew.

Nehemia: You actually knew Rabbi Carlebach?

Sathari: Yeah, he was from New York City. How could you not know Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach?

Nehemia: Okay. Anyway, he has this great song, which people should go and Google. Maybe I’ll post the link to it. He’s talking about how everybody needs a Rebbi. Look, I’m a Karaite, so I feel like I don’t need a Rebbi. My Rebbi is Moses. Moshe and the Tanakh and Yehovah. But he says, “Everybody needs a Rebbi.” And I was talking about this with my friend Keith and he said, “You know, this is really profound.” For Keith Johnson, Yeshua is his Rebbi. And the Rebbi is the one that connects you to God and a deep place in your soul, according to Rabbi Carlebach. And that’s interesting. So, you went from a Hassidic Rebbi to a Sikh Guru. There must be something in your soul that was looking for that, would you say, or you are still?

Sathari: I even learned from my Catholic relatives that there is this deep devotional well inside you. It’s sort of like you’re unveiling the door to God inside you, or the presence of God in the world, and that it’s something to be relished. It’s something to drink or just to experience.

Nehemia: To drink from the well. And, of course, that’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. “Makor” is a spring of water, and it comes from the verse in the book of Jeremiah, that Yehovah is that source of living water, the Makor.

Sathari: I like to think I’m somewhat familiar with the Jewish tradition.

Nehemia: Are you kidding me? You know more about Judaism than many American Jews I’ve met, or even some Israelis. I can’t believe this. This Sikh guy knows more… It’s impressive.

Sathari: I prayed Tehillim…

Nehemia: That’s the Psalms.

Sathari: The Psalms at the Koysel, which is the old Yiddish pronunciation.

Nehemia: American Jews will still say “Koysel.” So, you were at the Western Wall praying the Psalms. Were you wearing your turban?

Sathari: Yeah, yeah.

Nehemia: And what was the response of people there?

Sathari: I sort of thought the guy with the cleaning machine was trying to get me to move a little bit.

Nehemia: Maybe he wanted to clean that part of the floor.

Sathari: Yeah, but he came twice, you know what I mean? Someone sort of pushed him away.

Nehemia: Okay, but basically, they didn’t bother you.

Sathari: No, they didn’t bother me.

Nehemia: So, you as a Sikh went and you prayed at the Western Wall, and no one bothered you.

Sathari: And I put my kvitels in the wall.

Nehemia: That’s little prayers written on a piece of paper. Now, you had mentioned to me that you wanted to go pray on the Temple Mount, or at least go to the Temple Mount.

Sathari: Yeah, I don’t know it that’s gonna happen on this visit.

Nehemia: Okay, do you think that you’d be able to go to the Temple Mount and pray with the same freedom as what happened at the Western Wall?

Sathari: It’s hard to pray, looking over your shoulder.

Nehemia: Yeah. I want you to report back. And when you tell me what happens I think I want to share that with people. I’m really interested to find out.

Sathari: In the Sikh tradition, anybody can come in. Everybody has as much right as a Sikh. There’s nothing that they can’t do, really, except initiate people into Sikhism, which is a process. But we give free food out to people all the time. Our services in our temples, our gurdwaras, which means the “door to the Guru.” In India they give out food all the time. The ones in Queens, they gave out food when Hurricane Sandy destroyed the Rockaways. I’m a union leader in New York. One of my union members called me up and said, “Hey, your co-religionists are out here, giving food.” And he said to me they were there a full two or three days before FEMA even showed up.

Nehemia: Wow, that doesn’t surprise me.

Sathari: That doesn’t surprise me, either.

Nehemia: Let’s just wrap up with one last thing. You were telling me, you’re actually a famous international figure who’s had interaction with Bush Jr. and with the Queen of England. And this is because you work for the mass transit authority in New York, and you insisted on wearing your turban, which is part of your religion to wear that turban. And they wanted you to take the turban off.

Sathari: Well, it was funny. They hired me when I had a turban. I was there 23 years, and the president of the Metropolitan Transit Authority decided that I shouldn’t work there with a turban anymore. And first, he tried to intimidate me and get me to take it off with the threats of being fired. That didn’t work. So, it became a big case. And President George Bush actually had the Justice Department act as my attorney in my defense against the New York City Transit Authority. And I brought in some Muslim women who were also being persecuted by the Transit Authority, and some Rastafarians about the right to religious headgear. And the campaign sort of took off.

Nehemia: And I’m curious; are there no Jews in the Mass Transit Authority who wear kippahs, or…

Sathari: Well, they can wear hats, too, right?

Nehemia: Oh, so they don’t have to wear a kippah, they can just wear a baseball cap.

Sathari: They can wear a baseball cap.

Nehemia: And like in your religion you need to wear this.

Sathari: And they also wanted me to put a patch on my turban that said “MTA” on it. And I said, “God’s property. Keep off.” And it was a really popular campaign. President Bush really helped out. He actually does believe in religious freedom.

Nehemia: And my view is, the government should stay out of people’s religion. Don’t tell people what to wear. Leave people alone.

Sathari: The Transit Authority of New York City was in the ignominious position of being sued by George Bush’s government for religious freedom.

Nehemia: Well, you’re still working for the Transit Authority and you wear a turban, so I assume you won.

Sathari: Yeah, I did win. For me, it was sort of funny that God used me in this way. I sort of felt He had a better solution.

Nehemia: And what was the thing with the Queen of England?

Sathari: Oh, I heard from some of my friends in England. I was interviewed by the BBC Radio. And it was a really long show because there’s a lot of Sikhs in England. And the Hindus are very interested in it, as well. And I gave my talk about what happened and, from what I heard, the radio guy called me back and he said, “You know, we heard that the Queen of England was wondering why are they bothering that poor Sikh person over there,” because Sikhs are very popular in England…

Nehemia: And they’re respected.

Sathari: And respected, because they seriously and very devotedly took up the fight against fascism in World War Two, when Gandhi told the rest of Indians to stand down and not help the British. So, they just thought that Gandhi was a madman, that the Japanese and the Germans were categorically different kinds of enemies.

Nehemia: And you were telling me about this one Sikh man who said something to you about fighting the fascists.

Sathari: Yeah, one of my mentors is an older gentleman. He was in the British Army as an officer. They called them “Viceroy-commissioned officers.” They were Indians who were officers in the Indian regiment. He told me he felt he was a citizen of the Empire, and that destroying fascism was part of the job of all civilized people.

Nehemia: Amen. That’s a part I’m gonna agree with.

Sathari: He actually fought in North Africa, too.

Nehemia: Against the Nazis.

Sathari: Against the Nazis, yeah.

Nehemia: Well, Sathari, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming here and talking to me. And part of me is just kind of left wondering, not sure what exactly to make of your beliefs. But I’m honored that you came to the place where Yehovah put His name forever.

And I believe that this is the capital where King David established his capital, and where the angel appeared over the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. And it was revealed to him that this would be the spot where Yehovah would put His name forever. And Solomon built the first Temple, and Zerubbabel built the Second Temple. And I believe the Third Temple will be built soon, and may that be soon, by the King Messiah.

That is my prayer, and I hope you will be standing shoulder to shoulder with the people of Israel when that happens, calling upon the name of God as it says that all mankind will call upon His name with one accord, and I believe that name is Yehovah. And may that be soon.

Sathari: I can probably say this on behalf of most Sikh people, all Sikh people, that we wish Israel the best and success in all their enterprises, both spiritual and material. And we do stand by you, and we hope that the Temple Mount will someday, once again, become a house of prayer for all people who can go and pray there unrestricted, without fear or intimidation, and it is not the monopoly of anybody.

Nehemia: Amen. Thank you, very much.

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