Hebrew Voices #1 – Where Prophets Tread

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Nehemia: Shalom. This is Nehemia Gordon, and you are listening to the very first episode of Hebrew Voices. And I am here at the Jordan River, at the place of the Jordan River crossing, where the Israelites entered into the land. I am here with Anthony Garcia. Say “Shalom,” Anthony.

Anthony: Shalom. Hi.

Nehemia: Anthony, where are you from?

Anthony: Arizona right now, in the United States.

Nehemia: You’re from Arizona. You’re originally from New Mexico. I want to explain to people what this Hebrew Voices is all about. Hebrew Voices is about hearing different perspectives and different ideas from people in Israel, or people who love Israel, or who have information about Israel, and the Bible and the Hebrew language, and that’s really what it’s about.

And I’m here with Anthony, and I’m actually doing something that I originally wanted to do with my friend, Keith Johnson. We were doing a series called “The Prophet Pearls,” and the very last episode of Prophet Pearls was talking about the Prophet’s portion of Joshua 1-1-18. It’s parallel, a continuation, actually, of the Torah portion, of Vezot HaBrakha, it’s the last of the 54 Torah portions. We also originally did a series called “Torah Pearls” and then “Prophet Pearls.” And the very last episode, we were going to do together on this spot where we’re sitting right now, where I am sitting with Anthony.

Anthony: That’s amazing.

Nehemia: And we are so close to the Jordan River, I could actually stick my feet out and touch the water of the Jordan with my feet. I’m not going to ‘cause it’s actually very dirty over here, but that’s something that maybe we’ll talk about later. But what I want to do with Anthony today is hear some of his perspectives, that’s the Hebrew Voices idea, and then get into Scripture and talk about Joshua 1, verses 1-18. And also, not just that, but the other things that happened on this spot here, over at the Jordan River. If you ask most people what this site is, they’ll call it the site of the Baptism, ‘cause according to Christian tradition, this is the place where Jesus or Yeshua was baptized by John the Baptist. And also, it’s by tradition the place, and also the geography, where the Israelites crossed from the old land, from the plains of Moab into the promised land, into the land of the Canaan, or the land of Israel.

And so, this is actually the place where they became Israelites, where they up until now, I mean, they were Israelites before, but they enter into the land and the land of Canaan became the land of Israel, when they crossed over and possessed the land. And actually, it’s very interesting. There’s a lot of commandments, they start off and they say, “When you are coming to the land,” and it was here on this spot, about 3,400 years ago, that the people crossed over into the land and the Torah came into full effect. It’s interesting, up until this point, they’d wandered in the desert for 40 years and they weren’t circumcised, ‘cause they didn’t know if any moment they would have to travel.

When the tent of the meeting would rise up, or the cloud would rise up and the tent of the meeting would be broken and move, they would have to go and if you were just circumcised, you could die from that. And so, for 40 years, they weren’t circumcised. And it wasn’t until they crossed over this point and not far from here at a place called Gilgal, in the plains of Jericho, where they were circumcised for the first time. So really, in a sense, they became full, true Israelites when they crossed over the Jordan River here. They entered not only into the covenant of Zion but into the covenant of Abraham at this point, and it’s an amazing story.

So, a lot of Christians come to this site because it is the site where according to the Christian tradition, and not just tradition – we’ll talk about that probably, if it wasn’t here it was a mile from here – where both Yeshua was baptized and where the Israelites crossed the Jordan, and a few other things happened too. But before I get to that, Anthony, I want you to explain to the people, a lot of my listeners, they hear Nehemia’s with somebody named Anthony Garcia, who’s from New Mexico and they say, “Who is this guy? Is he a Jewish? Is he a Christian? What is he?” You know, they want to put you in a box, so, what box can we put you in, Anthony?

Anthony: Well, I don’t think I fit in a religious box.

Nehemia: You gotta have a box.

Anthony: I’m not a Christian, I don’t follow any doctrines of that sort. But I do believe that the man they call Jesus Christ, Yeshua the Anointed One, is the Messiah that came over here during the time of…

Nehemia: And just to be clear for the listeners, I’m not Christian, I’m not Messianic. I’m waiting for the Messiah to come. And I believe Anthony, you’d say you’re waiting for him to come back, right?

Anthony: Absolutely.

Nehemia: Okay, and this is the idea of Hebrew Voices. I’m not intimidated by what Anthony believes and I want to be able to meet him on common ground, the way I met Keith Johnson and other people, meet new people on common ground. There are gonna be episodes in this series where I speak to Orthodox Jews, where I speak to all kinds of interesting people, ‘cause I think there’s so many voices out there, Hebrew Voices that I want people to hear. That’s what this is about.

And today, we’re going to talk about Scripture, I’m so excited. Anthony, look, I’ll be honest with you. If you told my mother just now what you believe and you said those exact words, she’d say, “Anthony is a Christian. There’s no difference between him and the Pope.” And she wouldn’t be saying that to insult you. From her perspective, she’s a simple Orthodox Jewish woman. From her perspective, like if you believe in Jesus and you call him “Yeshua,” even if you say, “I don’t believe in Jesus, but I do believe in Yeshua,” I’ve heard people say that…

Anthony: Yes, and I’ve heard that before.

Nehemia: …to her, it’s all the same thing. So, for those who don’t know – and they don’t know you – for those who don’t know, what distinguishes Anthony Garcia from Pope Francis, besides the big funny hat. He is wearing a big funny hat, by the way, it just says “Yehovah” on it.

Anthony: Exactly. Well, a lot of the practices that the religions practice, I’ve distanced myself from. So, I was raised Catholic and I’ve been into a lot of the other Christian churches, non-denominations, Pentecostal, or whatever. And so, what I’ve found is that there’s a lot of truth and there’s a lot of tradition, there’s a lot of things that are mixed within the Scriptures. And what I’ve done is I’ve tried…

Nehemia: And when you say “Scriptures” do you mean both the Tanakh, the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Anthony: Yes. The Torah, the Writings, Brit Hadasha, or any of the writings.

Nehemia: And for me, Tanakh is the Scripture, but I look at the New Testament as historical documents. Okay, go on.

Anthony: Yeah. And so, during my research I’m finding out which of these documents are truthful, which ones can I rely on? And what language, what context, like we’re sitting here at the Jordan. I’ve been baptized further, up the Jordan.

Nehemia: How many times have you been baptized in your life, Anthony?

Anthony: Legally?

Nehemia: I don’t even know what that means.

Anthony: Probably about seven times.

Nehemia: Seriously? So, when you were a baby, I assume that you had the Catholic baptism?

Anthony: Yeah, the sprinkling version.

Nehemia: And, by the way, this is really cool. So, we arrived here a few minutes ago and there was a group of Catholics from Italy, and I actually did an interview with…We were listening to them do their prayers, and sing some songs. And look, I mean, I know, there’s a lot of people who hear “Catholics” and they’re like, “Ugh.” Especially, I think, people coming from a Catholic tradition who might be listening to this program, but I think we have other people listening to the program, who are Christians, who are Catholics, who are, all kinds, Jews, Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, all kinds of different people, and I thought it was beautiful. I don’t know what they were saying, but it was like beautiful music. And so, I actually recorded some of it, and then spoke to one of the people from Italy, and asked, “What is this place?” So, I’m gonna play that recording right now.

[Chanting]

Nehemia: So, tell me, what brings you here to the Jordan River? Are you a Christian?

Man: Yes, and we are making spiritual exercises in preparation for our next year of the seminary.

Nehemia: Oh, you’re studying to be a priest?

Man: Yes.

Nehemia: A Catholic priest?

Man: Yes, Catholic priest.

Nehemia: Oh, wow. Where in Italy are you from?

Man: I am from Matera, in the South of Italy. We are all from Basilicata, the same region.

Nehemia: Is that near Naples?

Man: Yes, next to Naples.

Nehemia: Is this your first time in Israel, in the Holy land?

Man: Yes. For us the younger, yes, but the priests have already been here.

Nehemia: What’s the significance of this place for you?

Man: It’s the place where Jesus exacted his baptism and the place where we are going to leave our old life and became new creatures.

Nehemia: Wow.

Man: Yes, begin a new life.

Nehemia: Okay. And so, what according to your faith, according to belief, happened in this spot?

Man: Jesus was baptized and Israel passed through the old land into the promised land.

Nehemia: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. So anyway, that was pretty cool. Those people came from Italy and look, do we know that it was this exact spot and not 100 feet that way, or 100 feet the other way? Not really. But the reason, probably, where it’s been associated with this spot is geographically, especially the crossing of the Israelites of the Jordan River, is that it says it was opposite Jericho, and we’re exactly opposite to Jericho. It happens to be that we’re in the middle of the worst sandstorm in modern Israel history since they’ve started recording these things, and there’s also a wind coming with all kinds of sand. I don’t know if they can edit out that wind sound, you can hear the wind blowing through the rushes here. It’s really beautiful.

Anthony: Very dusty.

Nehemia: And it’s hard for people to comprehend how close the other bank of the Jordan is. We’re on the western side of the Jordan River, and you can hear there’s some people here, they’re pilgrims coming to the Jordan, some of them may be coming to be baptized. I think most of them are sprinkling baptism, cause water’s kind of dirty here, so, they’re kind of doing this sprinkling thing. But they are touching the Jordan River, and the place where Yeshua, according to the New Testament was baptized.

And so, why this spot? And the answer is, you can actually walk right up to the Jordan River here. In most places it’s actually kind of difficult to get to the Jordan, it has very deep banks in many places. And this is one of the spots across from Jericho which is a natural ford, that’s F-O-R-D, you know, ford originally means, not the truck, it’s the place where you cross a river. So, there’s a natural ford right here and this is one of the fords, not fjords for you Norwegians. This is one of the fords of the Jordan River where people would cross. And so, was it this exact ford where the Israelites crossed or was it one 100 feet away? We don’t know that.

But tradition places it here. It also places the spot where Yeshua was baptized by Yohanan haMatbil, John the Baptist, right here. What are some other things? So, I asked you in preparation for this to do some research and find out other things that happened on this spot. What’d you come up with, Anthony? What’ya got?

Anthony: Well, I came up with the Israelites, of course, coming through, and John the Baptist being here, baptizing Yehoshua.

Nehemia: You call Him “Yehoshua.”

Anthony: Yehoshua.

Nehemia: Okay.

Anthony: Yeah, Yeshua for short.

Nehemia: So, that’s interesting. I never thought about that until this moment. So, Yehoshua is Joshua the son of Nun to me, and he led the people across the Jordan at this spot or maybe 100 feet away. And Jesus of Nazareth, known originally as Yeshua, or Yehoshua, it was the same name, He was baptized, according to Christian tradition, on this spot, and it’s in the Scripture. I mean, there it’s a little more difficult. It describes that John the Baptist, was baptizing people, and the people came from Jerusalem and the Galilee. So, that’s probably why they placed it here, ‘cause we’re just off from the main road from Jerusalem. So, if you were going to baptize a bunch of people from Jerusalem, this would be the spot. And then, the other reason is that it says after…And in Matthew we were talking about this.

Anthony: Yes, it was Matthew:3.

Nehemia: What’s in 4? What happens in Matthew:4, immediately after the baptism?

Anthony: After the baptism…

Nehemia: He’s taken out into the wilderness.

Anthony: Yes, into the wilderness.

Nehemia: And we are at the edge of the Judean wilderness, of the Judean desert. So, the place where he was tempted according to Matthew:4 is a few miles from here. So, this has to be this spot.

Anthony: It has to be.

Nehemia: And again, it could be 100 feet that way or 100 feet that way. Tradition says it’s here. On the opposite side of the Jordan River, there is something called the Monastery of John the Baptist, where since around the 5th century, Christians have marked this spot. I don’t think people can understand, and I’m gonna try to get some photos, I don’t know if they can really understand how close the other side of the Jordan is, and why therefore people are saying, “This is where they had to cross. It’s just so narrow here.” We were before standing on the edge, and there was a man on the other side. I was in Israel and he was in the kingdom of Jordan. And I did an interview with him, and I hope the audio came out. Let’s play it right now.

Nehemia: All right, I am here on the Jordan River, and I’ve just met a gentleman. I’m in Israel and he is in the kingdom of Jordan. Can you say “hello” from over there?

Lars: Hello.

Nehemia: You’ve gotta speak louder.

Lars: Hello, from Jordan.

Crowd: Hello.

Nehemia: So, this is so close. What would you say, this is like 10 feet across?

Lars: Yeah, maybe, it’s more 20.

Nehemia: 20 feet? Okay.

Lars: I’m a fisherman.

Nehemia: So, this is radio. Can you describe what you see here?

Lars: Probably one of the most holy sites I’ve ever been to.

Nehemia: What’s holy about it for you?

Lars: Well, I’ve read about this since I was five years old.

Nehemia: Wow.

Lars: Reading in the Bible, and I went to private school my entire life. And to see what my teachers were reading to me, and telling me to read, it’s pretty amazing.

Nehemia: That’s pretty cool. What happened here, according to your faith? Are you a Christian, or Jewish, or what are you?

Lars: I’m a baptized Christian, yes

Nehemia: Which denomination?

Lars: Non-denominational.

Nehemia: Okay. So, according to your faith, what happened on this spot?

Lars: Well, further over is the stuff I remember is John the Baptist baptizing Jesus, and having the holy spirit come down.

Nehemia: Excellent. What’s your name?

Lars: Lars.

Nehemia: Lars? And Lars, where are you from?

Lars: California, Long Beach California.

Nehemia: And where do you live now, Lars?

Lars: I’m living in Riyadh, in Saudi Arabia.

Nehemia: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. He came from there from California originally.

Lars: Yep.

Nehemia: And now he is in Jordan, speaking to a man across the river in Israel, making the Jordanian guard behind him a little uncomfortable.

Lars: Uh-oh.

Nehemia: We’d better go now. Thanks a lot, Lars.

Lars: Thanks.

Nehemia: Wasn’t that cool? That’s amazing. This guy from America, from California, and he’s from Saudi Arabia now, living. And he comes to Jordan and I’m talking to him from Israel. That’s amazing.

Anthony: It’s exciting.

Nehemia: Isn’t that incredible? It’s really cool. So, what happened here, besides those two incidents? The Israelites crossed into Israel for the first time and became full-fledged Israelites. Yeshua, or Yehoshua, was baptized. Did he become a Christian when He was baptized?

Anthony: No.

Nehemia: We’ll talk more about it. That’s an interesting statement. So, he was anointed with the Holy Spirit, according to your belief.

Anthony: Correct, according to the Scriptures.

Nehemia: Oh, you say according to the Scriptures, but I know different Christians…

Anthony: According to Matthew.

Nehemia: …and different Hebrew believers have different ideas of when He was anointed, right? I don’t know. What else happened here?

Anthony: Yeah, I think, it was Elijah and Elisha.

Nehemia: Elisha and Eliyahu which, I guess, in English is Elijah and Elisha. Eliyahu is Elijah and Elisha is Elisha. So, Eliyahu was the Prophet and Elisha was his sidekick. And I like the word “sidekick.” And he was his disciple, and it says they were at Jericho and then they left Jericho, and they crossed the Jordan River. And so, again geographically, this is the ford over the Jordan River opposite to Jericho. This is where they crossed.

And so, Elisha and Elijah cross over from Jericho into Transjordan, into what today is the kingdom of Jordan and into the plains. They left the plains of Jericho and went into the plains of Moab. And it’s really interesting, ‘cause the entire book of Deuteronomy takes place, or most of it, in the plains of Moab, which is just on the opposite side, 20 feet from here, according to the fisherman we interviewed before, from Riyadh.

And here are the plains of Jericho and really, it’s a single valley. And just to describe for people what we have here, and you can’t see this today, ‘cause it’s not a clear day, but on a clear day, you can really clearly see on the Eastern side of the Jordan River is a mountain range, which is in the kingdom of Jordan. And that in Hebrew is called “the mountains of Gilad,” “Harey Gilad” or the “Giliad.” On the western side are the mountains of Judea and Samaria, really just the mountains of Israel. Today, we call it Judea and Samaria, and in-between those this is the Jordan valley. And by the way, in the eastern slope of those mountains is the Judean desert where, according to the geography, Yeshua would have been tempted in Matthew 4.

So, we have these two mountain ranges that run parallel north and south, and in-between them is the Jordan valley and the Jordan River, which cuts through the Jordan valley. So, the geography really like kind of dictates what’s going on here. And in many places, it’s very narrow and very difficult. It’s very hilly, very difficult to get from the western mountains to the eastern mountains. But the plains of Jericho, they have this natural plain. I don’t know how wide it is. Someone can check on Google Earth maybe, and post on my website, nehemiaswall.com. But I think it’s around 10 miles wide. I’m just throwing out a number, it’s wide. You can drive across it in about 10 or 15 minutes, that’s where I’m getting 10 miles from. That depends on if you’re an Israel driver or not.

Then you have this similar thing on the eastern side of the Jordan which in the Bible is called the “plains of Moab.” And really, it’s a single continuous valley cut by the Jordan River. So, they were in the plains of Moab in the book of Deuteronomy and in the Book of Joshua they cross over in the plains of Jericho. So, you have Elijah and Elisha. Do you have any else that happens here? I know we had a bunch of things we talked about beforehand.

Anthony: Yeah.

Nehemia: And you know it’s funny, cause you do these discussions before we do the program, and then you think, “Well, I already said that. I don’t need to say it again,” and it turns out it wasn’t in the program. So, we do have another story here. I want to talk about something else. Let’s talk about this. So, here is the site where Yeshua was baptized. And don’t be offended by this when I say you’re coming from a Christian perspective, or maybe a New Testament perspective is a better way of describing it.

Anthony: Correct, the New Covenant.

Nehemia: Okay, I prefer New Testament. You could say in Hebrew “Brit Hadasha,” that’s fine. So, you are coming from this, you know, New Testament, “Brit Hadasha” perspective. What is a baptism? Tell me in Tanakh terms what baptism is.

Anthony: I believe a baptism is the immersion of oneself, which is cleansing oneself, the washing of oneself, the purifying of oneself of sin, especially turning back from sin, the forgiveness of sin, and then continuing on for the rest of the year.

Nehemia: Okay. What do you mean by the “rest of the year?”

Anthony: Well, until the feast and the cleansing.

Nehemia: So, you do it more than once?

Anthony: Yes, I believe you do.

Nehemia: So, you don’t just get baptized when you’re a baby, according to your belief. Obviously different people have different perspectives, we’re not telling anyone what to believe. This is Anthony’s Hebrew Voice.

Anthony: Right.

Nehemia: Okay. Cool. Now I’ve asked this question to a lot of Hebrew roots people, because Christians, I think, one of the things I’ve heard from Christians – I don’t know if everybody believes this – is that baptism was a new sacrament instituted by the New Testament, and that by being baptized you are entering into a new covenant and leaving the old covenant behind. I’ve talked to some, I guess, Messianics and Hebrew Roots people and asked them, “So, what is this baptism thing to you, ‘cause you say all the Torah is still valid. Where in the Torah do you have this concept about baptism?” And I’ve heard all kinds of interesting things, and I’ve never really got a satisfactory answer until we were discussing this on the way down here from Jerusalem, going down the Jericho road.

Anthony: Yeah, we were deciding, yeah.

Nehemia: Really, beforehand I was preparing for this and reading this section, and I told you, “Here’s the homework, Anthony. Read as preparation,” what was it, Deuteronomy 24 through Joshua 6? And we read some other stuff too, but that was the main thing that we really kind of focused on, ‘cause that takes place here in this spot where we’re sitting, or a mile from here, some of the things, you know, when they brought on the walls of Jericho in Joshua 6, that’s a few miles from here. On a clear day, you can see Jericho from here, that’s how close it is. It’s amazing. Actually, at one time this was in sniper range of Jericho. In 2001, I think and ‘02, if I remember correctly, there was a second intifada, and the snipers, the Palestinian terrorist snipers, would get up on top of casino which had been the symbol of peace, you know. What was that about, the casino is a symbol of peace?

But the idea was that there’s no casinos in Israel, Jews would come from Tel Aviv to spend their money at the Jericho casino, and it became the symbol of peace and co-existence. Well, it became a symbol of war, and they used it as a sniper’s nest to attack Jews who were driving on the road that we just drove on, which is the Jericho bypass. So, that’s how close Jericho is. So, we’re sitting at the spot where these things took place, and so, in preparation, we read the main stories that took place here. And one of the things that hit me as I’m reading this, and I think it hit you the same thing, ‘cause when I brought up you were like, “I know exactly what you’re saying.” It’s like you were completing my sentences. It’s like an old married couple, or something. But just to be clear, you’re married to a woman, right?

Anthony: Oh, definitely.

Nehemia: And I’m looking for a wife. Okay.

Anthony: With kids.

Nehemia: Yes, you have kids.

Anthony: That’s right. I do have kids, yeah.

Nehemia: How many kids do you have?

Anthony: I have five boys.

Nehemia: You want to give a shout out to your boys?

Anthony: Hey, Anthony, Brian, Drake, Jordan, and Jacob.

Nehemia: And to your wife?

Anthony: And of course, my lovely wife, Jennifer. Without her, none of this would be possible.

Nehemia: Shalom, Jennifer. All right.

Anthony: Shalom, Jen.

Nehemia: So, what was the thing that hit me and that hit you, both, as we were reading this? So, one of the things that took place, probably less than this, I could probably – I hate to use this expression – I probably spit, the place where this took place is so close. I could hit it with, you know, the sweat, if I swish my hair. Oh, I don’t have any hair, but I do have a lot of sweat. I mean, it’s really close, probably it took place like…

Anthony: 20 feet.

Nehemia: No, it probably took place 10 feet from here.

Anthony: Yes, 10 feet, yeah.

Nehemia: Meaning, the event that we’re talking about is the crossing of the Jordan. And who came across first? That’s the interesting thing. And the people who came across first were the Kohanim. Let me read this passage. Do you want to read it, do you have that one?

Anthony: No, go ahead.

Nehemia: Or do you want me to read it? Okay, so, I’m going to read you from, this is Joshua:3-15. And it says as follows. “Now, the Jordan River overflows its banks throughout the time of harvest,” and that’s an important point. Today, we are sitting right next to the Jordan River and the bank is behind me, and the bank is probably 10 feet high, or 15 feet high…

Anthony: 15.

Nehemia: …On the Israeli side. The Jordanian side, that looks like it’s maybe not as high, or it could be as high. And those banks were full back then. Today, the banks never get full, and why don’t they don’t get full, the banks of the River? Because we syphon off the water in Israel from the Sea of Galilee. And there’s also a dam upriver which prevents also this flooding. But at that time, the river was much deeper, that’s an important historical kind of context here. It still wasn’t that wide. So then, instead of being 20 feet wide, maybe, it was 50 feet wide, orf 60 feet. We’re not talking about the Mississippi here, guys. We’re talking about a place that you could wade across, probably. Back then, you couldn’t wade across, you could swim across.

Anthony: Yeah, this is it.

Nehemia: So, there was a miracle that took place. It’s in Joshua:3-13. It says, “When the soles of the feet of the Priests who bear the Ark of Yehovah, the Lord of all the earth, rests in the waters of the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan flowing from above shall be cut off. They shall stand in a single heap.” That’s really interesting, the waters were told they will stop, and then that actually happens. “When the people set out…” verse 14, “When the people set out from their tents to cross over the Jordan,” right here where we’re sitting, like 20 feet, 30 feet away, “When the people set out from their tents to cross over the Jordan, the Priests bearing the Ark of the Covenant were in front of the people. Now, the Jordan overflows all of the banks throughout the time of harvest. So, when those who bore the Ark had come to the Jordan, and the feet of the Priests bearing the Ark, were dipped in the edge of the water, the waters flowing from above stood still, rising up in a single heap far off at Adam, the city that is beside Zarethan,” or it’s Sultan, “while those flowing towards the sea of the Aravah, the Dead Sea, were wholly cut off.”

So basically, the Jordan River stopped up at Adam, which today is the Damiye Bridge, we call it “Gesher Damiye” in Hebrew, that’s the ancient city of Adam, the Adam bridge. I don’t know what they call it in English. It might be called the “Allenby Bridge.” I believe it is called the Allenby Bridge after Allenby, the general who conquered Israel. But I could be confusing two bridges, don’t listen to me. It’s Damiye Bridge or Adam Bridge, which is another ford over the Jordan, hence why there was a bridge there.

So, verse 17 of Joshua 3, “While all Israel were crossing over on dry land, the Priests who bore the Ark of the Covenant of Yehovah stood on dry ground, in the middle of the Jordan until the entire nation finished crossing over.” And it goes on in Joshua 4 and talks about how they took stones from the bottom, and they set up stones at Gilgal, but other stones are here. I’d love to stop the water here so we could see those stones on the bottom. Wouldn’t that be cool?

Anthony: That would be cool.

Nehemia: Or I bet you could go with like a sonar or something, No one’s gonna do this, ‘cause it’s a border between two countries. And just so people are clear, like I can see the Jordanian guard there, and I can see over here, behind me the Israeli guard with his…what has he got, that’s M-16 with, what is that thing, a grenade launcher, and over here there is a Jordanian guard. I don’t think the Jordanian is armed or I don’t see his…

Anthony: I think he might have a pistol.

Nehemia: He might have a pistol. I don’t see a long rifle, that’s probably for the best. So anyway, that’s how close we are here. So, probably somewhere down here below us are the stones, and that would actually prove definitely that this was the spot. It might be covered over in sediment, ‘cause, you know, it’s been 3,400 years. It’s amazing, we’re here where all these things happened. Yeah, there’s the Jordanian guard on his cell phone, I think he’s reporting to Jordanian intelligence. “There’s two crazy guys who are on a recording over here, speaking about the Bible.”

Anthony: No, he’s probably talking to his wife saying he’s going to be late for lunch.

Nehemia: That’s probably what he is saying, yeah.

Anthony: Well, there was that other passage in Psalms.

Nehemia: Allenby. I’m speaking here to a lady. What is your name, ma’am? Would you come here and speak to our recording? This is a woman who’s standing with her feet in the Jordan the way the Priests were standing when they crossed over. I’m not that brave, just yet.

Sherry: Allenby in Tel Aviv.

Nehemia: Oh, Allenby street, General. So, in 1917 the British conquered Israel. And the British General, who took credit, I should say, was a man named General Allenby. And he was the first one to conquer Israel since 1517 when the Turks conquered Israel. That’s not entirely true, ‘cause other people conquered it. But the first one to conquer it and hold it was General Allenby. He conquered it from the Ottoman Turks. And so, there’s a bridge named after him upriver…

Sherry: There’s roads in Tel Aviv, yeah.

Nehemia: And there’s roads in Tel Aviv. He’s got a lot of things that he named after himself.

Sherry: I wondered who Allenby was.

Nehemia: Yeah, he was a British guy.

Sherry: He was British.

Nehemia: He was probably in charge, and I don’t know who decided to call it “Allenby,” but I’m sure he had said in it, since he was a general. Yeah, anyway, so we’re doing a podcast here called “Hebrew Voices” and we’re hearing different perspectives about the Bible from Jews, and Christians, and other people, and anything about Israel or the history of Israel, or the people of Israel. Where are you from? Who are you? Where are ya’ll from?

Sherry: We’re Sherry and Rick Conley, and we’re from South Carolina, in America.

Nehemia: South Carolina, cool. Are you Jews or Christians?

Sherry: We’re Christians, and we are on a trip to Israel on our own. People, a lot of our relatives, think we’re crazy.

Nehemia: Oh no, you’re not crazy.

Sherry: You know, we’re not on a guarded tour, or whatever. We have a rental car out there and we’re just kinda seeing the sights.

Anthony: That’s great.

Nehemia: Come on with that, sister.

Sherry: And we saw the other alleged baptism, we were there yesterday.

Nehemia: A Yardenit.

Sherry: Yes.

Nehemia: So, that one was actually established in the 50’s when this was a no man’s land between Israel and Jordan. Nobody claims that that’s where Jesus was baptized. They just say, “Well…” Up until 2011 this was a closed military zone on the Israeli side, with land mines. And you could get to the Jordanian side, but I was there in 2007. You had to go through 10 layers of security, and go on like an armored bus with Jordanian security. So basically, that’s why they set up the one in the north, but this is the one where at least tradition and history, I think, also points to this being the site of the baptism.

Sherry: Well, this makes more sense too, because it talks about Jesus went up into the mountainside, you know after…

Nehemia: That’s what we are talking about. That’s right.

Ray: When I saw it I said, “This looks like it.”

Nehemia: Yeah, this is the wilderness here, the Judean desert.

Sherry: Yeah, yeah…

Nehemia: You can feel the heat.

Sherry: This seemed more like where John would have lived, you know, than up where we were around the other side.

Nehemia: I think John was probably up there, too. He was probably moving back and forth in this region, yeah. Well, it was nice to meet you. Thanks for being…You’re going to be on this program.

Sherry: Thank you.

Nehemia: It’s called “Hebrew Voices” at Nehemia’s Wall. I’m Nehemia.

Sherry: Thank you.

Nehemia: Cool. All right, we’re gonna continue with the program now. Whoa, whoa. Her feet are back in the Jordan and I think the Jordan is splitting up at the Allenby bridge, the Damiye bridge.

Anthony: No, it’s drying up…

Nehemia: It’s not.

Sherry: I didn’t realize we’re so close to Jordan.

Nehemia: Can you believe we are so close to Jordan?

Ray: I saw the uniform. I took the pictures.

Nehemia: Yeah, it’s pretty cool. All right, what were we talking about?

Anthony: Yeah, I think we were talking about the Jordan…

Nehemia: Oh, so this is so cool. So, they stepped with their feet in the Jordan River and the Jordan stopped. And what’s really interesting, coming from, you know, I studied archaeology and biblical studies. And one of the things when we read this story, one of the things they told us is that in 1929 there was an earthquake, and that earthquake caused a cliff to fall into the Jordan River. And that earthquake stopped the waters of the Jordan for an entire day until the waters built up or found a way around. And then, they continued to flow with the Jordan River changing its course. And I don’t know if that’s what’s being described, but it sounds awfully like it, that when they put their feet in, Yehovah said, “Come on, mountains. It’s time for you to step up,” and He split the river…

Anthony: Amen.

Nehemia: …or He shook the mountains. And that actually fits something we read in Psalm 114. Can you read that?

Anthony: Yes, verse 3. It says, “The sea saw and fled, the Yarden was driven back. The mountains skipped like rams, the little hills like lambs. What was it, you sea, that you fled, you Yarden, that you turned back?”

Nehemia: So, we have two incidents in history which are parallel to each other, and they’re directly connected here in Psalms, and they’re also connected in the Book of Joshua. And the two incidents are the splitting of the sea by Moses, the Red Sea. And then, approximately, or I think exactly, 40 years later, it was Joshua who then caused the Jordan River to dry up.

And it says actually in Joshua, I read that verse, you know, when I was preparing this, just reminding myself. It says there that this was to show the world, and the Israelites, that Yehovah is with Joshua. Here it’s, Joshua 4:14, “On that day, Yehovah exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel. And they stood in awe of him as they stood in awe of Moses all the days of his life.” So, this was to show the Israelites, and there’s a verse either before or later, which says it was also to show the world, like they saw this happening and they were like, “Oh, boy. God is with these people.”

Here, it’s verse 18 of Joshua 4, “When the Priests bearing the Ark of the Covenant of Yehovah came up from the middle of the Jordan, and the soles of the Priests’ feet touched the dry ground, the waters of the Jordan returned to their place and overflowed all its banks, as before.” And by the way, I mentioned the earthquake, which I think is kind of alluded to there, when it talks about the mountains moving and skipping…

Anthony: Correct, yes.

Nehemia: …that may be describing the earthquake. We are in a Syrio-African Rift Valley, there are a lot of earthquakes here. Like I said, in 1929 there was a major earthquake. And there’s a verse somewhere here, I don’t know where, guys look it up and post on my website nehemiaswall.com. Do you have the verse where it says the whole world saw this and they were…Or did I make that up?

Anthony: No, I have it, in Joshua 1.

Nehemia: It’s funny, that’s not even what I wanted to talk about. This is all the introduction. This is the Hebrew Voices. The Hebrew Voices isn’t just the Haftorah portion. The Hebrew Voices is all kinds of things related to Scripture, and the history of Israel, and the Hebrew language, and the people of Israel, and those who love Israel. So, all right, and we just spoke to some Hebrew voices from…where were they from, Wisconsin? Some really cold place.

Anthony: No, I think it was Carolina.

Nehemia: Oh, South Carolina. I have Wisconsin on my mind, for some reason. I need some cheats.

Anthony: If she would’ve said Cackalacky, I think it would’ve been more…

Nehemia: Cackalacky, where’s that?

Anthony: Well, because it’s more native, North Cackalacky, South Cackalacky.

Nehemia: Oh, it’s Carolina, okay. Anyway, so the Priests, they came across on this very spot, and here’s what caught my attention. This is what we were totally sidetracked on what we want to talk about. What caught my attention before is the word for the feet of the Priests being in the water, is…Let me look at it, what was it? Chapter 3 what, do you remember? I’ve gotta read to people what this verse is, I mean, this is just so important. Let me back-up.

When I’ve asked people coming from the Hebrew Roots perspective and the Messianic perspective, I say, “What is this baptism? I don’t have baptism in the Tanakh.” They say, “It’s purification.” And I say, “Wait a minute, purification? In the Torah, when people purified themselves, it’ll say like birhats besaor bemaim,” “he shall wash his flesh in water.” It doesn’t say anything about immersion. It has the word “rahatz,” “to wash,” and when it’s clothes, it’s “kibes,” which is “to launder, to wash.” The word for baptism in Greek, it’s “baptismo,” or “baptize.” The word for baptism in Hebrew would be “taval.” You know, and it’s interesting, I hear people from the Christian or Hebrew Roots, or Messianic perspectives and they’ll say, “I was mikvaed,” that’s what they’ll say. And that’s like a Hebrew alternative to baptized.

Anthony: I couldn’t find it in the Book of Matthew.

Nehemia: So, mikva means just any body of water, the seas are called a “mikva.” In Genesis chapter 1 it says, “The waters gathered.” “Mikva” means gathering, a gathering of waters. So, it’s any body of water from a small pool to a sea, the literal meaning of mikva, so you can’t say you were mikvaed. The Hebrew word is “Taval,” which means to immerse, or to be immersed, or to immerse. And John, in Hebrew, is called “Johanan Hamatbil,” the immerser, the baptizer, the toveler, matbil. It’s interesting, that word appears in the Book of Ruth where it describes Ruth dipping her bread into vinegar. And actually, in Hebrew it’s “khometz” which some people say refers to hummus. It’s the word in Hebrew, kind of because it’s sour, that’s what it literally means. So, she probably dipped her bread in hummus, and if you think how Israelis deep their pita in hummus, their bread, that’s what it means to be immersed. It’s not the same thing as washing. Washing can be, you can wash yourself through immersion. You can also wash yourself by taking a jug of water and pouring it over your head.

So, where does this immersion thing come from? And I asked that to a lot of Hebrew Roots people, and I’d never got any satisfactory answer, as I said until we were on our way here. And let me read again verse 13 in Hebrew of Joshua, is it Joshua 3, I believe? Yeah, Joshua 3:13. It says, “Vehaya kinoah kapot ragley hakohanim…” Okay, that’s not it. That is where he says it will happen. And then actually, it’s interesting, it says, “And the feet of the Priests will rest.” That’s what it says in verse 13. And then in verse 15 it says, “And it came to pass, when those carrying the Ark up to the Jordan, and the feet of the Kohanim carrying the Ark nitbelu, were baptized in the edge of the water.”

Anthony: I’m going to try to do that right now.

Nehemia: Okay, so Anthony right now is baptizing his feet, or literally immersing his feet. So, if you were a Kohen, a Priest, carrying the Ark right now, you’d have the Ark on your shoulder, right now with your feet, you’re up to your knees in it, right now the water would’ve split. It would’ve stopped up at the Allenby bridge. Right now, we might’ve heard the shaking of the earth, maybe, the earth would have shaken, the mountains skipped. The cliff would’ve fallen into the Jordan River, or something would’ve happened. And the Jordan would’ve dried up, allowing the Israelites to cross over this 20-feet or maybe even 50 or 60 feet back then, ‘cause it was more full, crossing on dry land, sort of a little repeat of what happened, obviously…Oh, oh. He’s doing it seven times. Why seven times?

So, this brings us to the other time that word “baptism” appears, and that’s in the story of Naaman, I think we talked about it on the way over here, I don’t think we read it. The story of Naaman who was the Syrian General who had leprosy. And Elisha, the same man who crossed over here with his master, Eliyahu, Elijah, that same Elisha, that’s him doing it seven times, Anthony. Are you a Syrian General with leprosy?

Anthony: No…

Nehemia: But it can’t hurt.

Anthony: If I had anything, I guarantee after the seventh time, it’s going to be gone.

Nehemia: I don’t know. Be careful what you guarantee, it’s up to Yehovah. Anyway, so he immersed himself seven times in Jordan after the instruction of Elisha, and his leprosy went away. And the interesting thing there is, that’s the other time in the Bible where we find this term of baptism. And I think I talked about this in one of the programs with Keith in Prophet Pearls. That’s the only time it talks about somebody being baptized in the Jordan River. And literally, he was just immersed. He was immersing himself in Jordan.

Anthony: All right, that’s number seven.

Nehemia: All right. And so, Naaman immersed seven times in the Jordan and now I can see a second place which I even didn’t realize. It didn’t occur to me, ‘cause it says, “They immersed their feet.” Their feet were immersed.” They were baptized in the Jordan River. And so, what are we really saying here? I don’t know what we’re saying. Talk to me, Anthony, What’s the significance of this for you, coming from a New Testament perspective? What does this have to do with Jesus of Nazareth, Yeshua Hanotzri?

Anthony: Well, I’ve always liked to walk the Scriptures, to find out really, where it was, what it was that they were doing, to get that experience and to be able to teach somebody else, to explain to somebody else, what the verse, or the chapter, or wherever in the Tanakh or the Brit Hadasha is referring to. Whatever it’s referring to, at least have foreknowledge and an actual acknowledge of doing these things.

Nehemia: So, now you’ve done what Naaman did, he went the whole way, you just went with your feet.

Anthony: Well, yeah.

Nehemia: Are you willing to get the whole way in this water, or is it too dirty?

Anthony: Not right now.

Nehemia: And I should tell people, the reason it’s dirty isn’t because of this…There’s nothing inherent in geographical location that makes the water dirty. The reason it’s dirty is that both Israel and the kingdom of Jordan have fish ponds upriver, and they grow fish there in a very high concentration. And when they harvest the fish, they then flush the water from the fish ponds into the Jordan River. And that fish pond water is very dirty. There might also be some sewage water. Yeah, so, this is the reason that I hope you clean your feet really well after this.

Anthony: Yeah. Well, I’ve got antiseptic and everything.

Nehemia: Excellent, all right. But back then, the people didn’t need that, the Priests didn’t need it. Yeshua when He was baptized in here, He didn’t need it. And we have another time, by the way, so we’ve got the splitting of the Red Sea. We’ve got the cessation of the Jordan from flowing. We have twice more that this happens, and people, this is homework. We’re not going to go into it, we’ve spent more time on this than I really wanted to. I want to get to Joshua 1.

But the second time, the third, the fourth time really, that this happens, is when Elijah and Elisha, Eliyahu and Elisha, they Jericho, come to the Jordan River, and then we’re told the water splits. And they cross over on dry land, and then Elisha asks Eliyahu, he says, “I want pi shenayim of your spirit,” which most people translate as a “double portion.” I say it’s two thirds. I’ve talked about that in Prophet Pearls. And it’s at this spot they crossed over, and somewhere over there, they’re walking and talking. And he says, “Well, you know what? I don’t know if you’re gonna get the double spirit. It’s not dependent on me. It’s called the spirit of Eliyahu, but it’s not my spirit, it’s Yehovah’s spirit. The way I’m gonna know and you’re gonna know, is if you see me taken up to heaven, then you’re gonna get it. And if you don’t, you won’t.”

“And he saw Elijah taken up in a chariot of fire with horses of fire,” it says. “They came down and then he rose to heaven.” And then Elisha walked back and then he took the mantle, which is really the coat, like kind of a pelt of an animal. He took it and he split the Jordan with it and crossed over on dry land. The fourth time a body of water split, three times the Jordan, once the Red Sea. And that showed him, that “Yes, I do have that spirit of Eliyahu. It’s been confirmed, the Prophet spoke it. It was fulfilled with my eyes, and now it’s fulfilled with my actions.”

And, so this is the very spot or very close to the spot where all these things happened, where Joshua crossed over with the people and the water dried up, and then Elisha and Eliyahu crossed over. And it’s interesting, the man’s name is “Elisha” which means “My God saves” from the root Yud Shin Ayin, which is the same root as Yehoshua, Yeshua, which means “Yehovah saves.” So, in a sense, Elisha and Yehoshua are almost the same name. One means “My God saves” and the other means “Yehovah saves.” That’s pretty cool.

And you know, here I want to stop. You know, some people say, “Wait a minute, Nehemia. What are you saying?” And what I’m saying is, if your faith is if you believe in Yeshua, then the parallel there is history was repeating itself. And if you’re coming from a secular perspective, or from a Jewish perspective, you might say, “Well, at the very least, the person who wrote the story was making a parallel to the story of Eliyahu and Elisha.” They were drawing a parallel, whether actually happened or not, or whether it happened that way. And the way I would look at it, honestly, is that Joshua…It’s interesting, I said “Joshua,” I wanted to say, Jesus, Yeshua, that when He came to the Jordan, I’m sure He realized, “Okay, this is the spot where the Israelites crossed. And this is the spot where Elisha crossed, and Eliyahu crossed. And He was meeting with John, who was seen as an Eliyahu-Elijah figure. I mean, there’s a lot going on there. You can’t tell me that Jesus, Yeshua, Yehoshua came to this spot and wasn’t thinking about that, as well.

And then, what’s interesting is that it says that the chariot of fire and the horses of fire came down, And you were reading to me something which is in the New Testament account, again, you could read this from the faith perspective, or this is how the Gospels understood the event. What does it say there happened? Was this in Luke, I think, Luke chapter 3?

Anthony: Yes. Okay, I’m reading from Luke 3:15, “As the people were filled with expectation and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Messiah.”

Nehemia: Wow, I’ve gotta stop there. So, John the Baptist is standing here on the banks of the Jordan River, baptizing people, and people think, “This has gotta be the Mashiakh. Someone’s gotta come and defeat the Romans for us, and this has gotta be that guy, or maybe it is.”

Anthony: 16, “John answered all of them by saying, ‘I baptized you with water, but one who is more powerful than I is coming. I am not worthy to untie the thongs of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.’”

Nehemia: Wow. So, this is really cool, and I’m not going to get into this today. This should be a whole topic. I should come back here with you or somebody, and talk about the Hebrew Matthew version of the story that takes place on this spot with John the Baptist…

Anthony: That’d be great.

Nehemia: …and comparing the Greek and the Hebrew in Matthew. And then, what’s really interesting is it appears in four of the Gospels. And the Hebrew Matthew doesn’t agree closest to the Mathew version, it agrees closest to the Luke version.

Anthony: To the Luke version.

Nehemia: …which is unbelievable. There’s, I believe, two whole verses that don’t appear in Matthew in the Greek, but they do appear in Matthew in the Hebrew, and they also appear in Luke in the Greek. That’s really cool.

What an amazing discussion this has been. I want to give a shout out to the sponsor of this very first episode of Hebrew Voices, Deborah Ryden of California. Anthony, the Bible keeps coming back to this very spot of the Jordan River, and I think we need to come back here to continue talking about the ancient events that took place right here. Until then, I hope the people will be filled with expectation for next week’s episode. Shalom.

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