Hebrew Voices #61 – 1,000 Manuscripts with Yehovah

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Michael: Ladies and gentlemen, there’s no controversy anymore. Every bit of evidence that we have tells us how His name is to be pronounced.

Nehemia: Shalom. This is Nehemia Gordon, and welcome to Hebrew Voices. This episode is a special celebration on the occasion of finding the 1,000th Hebrew Bible manuscript with the full vowels, “Yehovah.” I want you to hear from some of the team scouring Hebrew Bible manuscripts in libraries around the world, looking for the name, “Yehovah,” and others who have been key in spreading the truth about this vital information to Israel and the nations. I begin the conversation with Michael Rood.

Michael: I was doing a series, the “Rood Awakening” series from Israel at that time, and I had already filmed and had heavily invested in the name, “Yahweh.” Even today, now, it is more than a quarter of a million DVDs that have gone out over the world. And I was so invested in this that I did not want to listen to Nehemia’s explanation in his research, which began really at four years of age, as he began learning Hebrew. He wanted to know the name, and it was such a passion for him, but honestly, I did not want to listen to him because I had already put my flag on the mountain. I didn’t want to listen to him, but a few years passed, and he brought forth evidence that I knew I could no longer ignore. Yesterday, I got a call from Nehemia Gordon, and this is a truly historic event that transpired just yesterday. Ladies and gentlemen, Nehemia Gordon. Welcome, Nehemia.

Nehemia: Shalom Michael. It’s great to be here. This really is a historic discovery. For the last 17 years this has been my passion, to find God’s name in the Hebrew manuscripts, really more than 17 years. But 17 years ago, I found the first two manuscripts with the full vowels, “Yehovah,” and that’s what I shared with you. And Michael, what I loved about you from the moment I met you at that cafe is you had this yearning for truth. And yes, you were invested in DVDs, but the bottom line is, what is the truth of the Creator of the universe? And that’s, I think, how we connected there.

We’ve now accessed thousands of manuscripts, and as of this recording, we now have 1,010 manuscripts of the Bible in Hebrew with the full vowels, “Yehovah.” And this blows my mind, Michael. The name has been a secret for over 1,000 years, and when the information started to come out, some of the detractors said, “Well, that’s just one scribe. That’s just two scribes. That’s just five scribes.” Now it’s 1,010 manuscripts, and these go back to the earliest manuscripts with vowels from the year 895, for 1,000 years, for over 1000 years, all the way up until they stopped making manuscripts. Throughout this entire period, the scribes consistently, when they put in the full vowels, they put them in as “Yehovah.” I’ll tell you, Michael, I come at this as a scholar. If I found out His name was something else…This what I learned at the university. You can’t have a dog in the fight. You’ve got to look for truth, and you have to accept that truth even if it’s inconvenient and it doesn’t match your preconceptions.

So, if I had found that His name was “Yahweh,” I would have embraced that. I would have no problem with that. I didn’t find that. I’ve been looking for “Yahweh.” I have a team of volunteers now, and I tell them, “If you ever find any other vowels, let me know”. We’ve found two manuscripts, out of the thousands we’ve looked at, that have alternative vowels, that do not have the vowels shva, khloam, kamatz. Instead, they have shva, kholam, patakh, which, guess how that’s pronounced in Hebrew, Michael? That’s also pronounced “Yehovah.” So, out of all the manuscripts, only two have this alternative, and that’s still “Yehovah.”

We now have three manuscripts with a Babylonian pointing, which is an alternative dialect of Hebrew, not the standard Hebrew you find in printed Bibles and in most manuscripts. It was used by the Jews of Babylonia and in Yemen. And there, it’s also “Yehovah.” I mean, all of the evidence now is converging and it’s really definitive. I put out a study recently in my website, nehemiaswall.com, called “The Mistake That Got It Right,” and there I go through some of the new discoveries we’ve found. And we’ve found things in these manuscripts nobody knows about, things that you won’t find in any introduction to biblical Hebrew, or any teaching on the textual criticism, because we were looking through these manuscripts and we’re finding new things. And I put that in my study.

Another study I did is Ten Rabbis Who Speak Out On The Name. Those two studies together really bring together a large portion of this. I’m working on future studies, which are really going to lay out all this evidence. Michael, I want to tell you the verse in which we found it, which is one of the coolest things in this whole story. I pull up the manuscript, it’s number 1,000. And I go to see, “Well, what’s the passage?” I look it up in the context in my Bible. The first thing that appears to me is, Deuteronomy 18:5, and it’s only three words on the line that have survived. Part of it is missing, eaten by worms. The words that survive is, “Lesharet beshem Yehovah,” “To serve the name of Yehovah,” and that’s the 1,000th manuscript that has the full vowels, “Yehovah.”

Later down in that column of the same page is Deuteronomy 18:15, “A Prophet from your midst, from your brothers, like me, Yehovah your God will raise up from you and you will listen to him, obey him.” And that had the full vowels, “Yehovah,” Michael. That was the second witness. And Michael, may that Prophet come soon, and we will both be standing before him and proclaiming the name of his

Father, Yehovah. May that be soon, Amen.

Michael: Amen.

Nehemia: There’s this verse in Psalm 148. It says, “Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all judges of the earth, both young men and maidens, old men and women, let them praise the name of Yehovah. His name alone is exalted, His glory is above the earth and heaven.” And so, this is a verse, Michael, that talks about the importance of the name for all peoples, not just Jews. Every human being on planet earth needs to know what this name is and be able to proclaim it. And now, after over 1,000 years of the name being hidden, it’s being proclaimed throughout the world through this evidence, this overwhelming evidence, of 1,000 Hebrew Bible manuscripts. It’s incredible, Michael.

Michael: It is. Jeremiah’s prophecy is now coming to pass. The Gentiles coming to Israel from the ends of the earth, crying out in repentance for the abominations that they inherited. And the Almighty says, because they cry out in repentance, He will make his name, Yehovah, known to the Gentiles, and this is the moment. 1,000 Hebrew manuscripts of the Rabbis. As you say, 10. I believe it’s now 16 Rabbis.

Nehemia: It’s 16 Rabbis, yeah. And if you want to be precise, there are 1,010 Hebrew Bible manuscripts, as of this recording. We’ve found 10 more.

Michael: Ladies and gentlemen, there is no controversy anymore. Every bit of evidence that we have tells us how His name is to be pronounced. It’s not up to the Gentiles to try to figure it out. It is in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts, and it tells us exactly. Nehemia, thank you.

Nehemia: Shalom, Dawn.

Dawn: Shalom, Nehemia.

Nehemia: Dawn, I am really excited, because we just reached 1,000 manuscripts with the full vowels, and you were part of that. I want you to share with the people some of the things that you experienced in helping us get to this goal. And before you do that, I want to tell people, Dawn, that you’re part of a very small group of people in the world. In fact, there’s only three of them, who I call the “100 Club,” people who have found the name with full vowels, “Yehovah,” in 100 manuscripts or more. And you just literally joined that club very recently. How does that feel, to have found the name “Yehovah” in 100 Bible manuscripts in Hebrew?

Dawn: It feels amazing. I loved being part of this. It’s been an honor. It’s been so satisfying, so rewarding to see His name preserved over the millennia so that we can know it today. It’s prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes, and it is so exciting.

Nehemia: Amen. So Dawn, how many hours do you think you’ve spent searching for the name?

Dawn: Well, I get up in the morning, I get my coffee, well, lately tea, and I sit at my computer. And every spare moment when I’m not working on something else, I’m looking for the name, until I go to bed at night.

Nehemia: That’s amazing. That’s pretty much my life, too.

Dawn: Yeah, it’s totally addictive.

Nehemia: Isn’t it? Well, I’m looking at these statistics here, and you went through something called the “Lewis Gibson Collection.” And there’s 592 manuscripts in that collection, and in that you found the name in 88 of those. I mean, one of the things I’ve heard from some of the critics is, “Well yeah, the name’s everywhere, those are the vowels of Adonay, so they just put them everywhere.” But you’re looking in 592 manuscripts, and of that, you only find it in 88, that’s 15 percent. That means you’re not finding it far more often than you are finding it. Is that frustrating?

Dawn: No, it’s not frustrating. Every single manuscript to me is beautiful, because it’s the preservation of His language. And so, they’re beautiful in their own right. But when you find the name with full vowels it’s just a special treasure and you’ve found something amazing. So, I enjoy every bit of it. But finding His name, when I find that 15 percent, it keeps me going. I love being part of this whole project.

Nehemia: Wow, and I know some of the manuscripts you’ve looked through in the British Library were very long manuscripts and you didn’t find the name with full vowels.

Dawn: Hundreds, 700 pages.

Nehemia: So, you went through 700 pages and you didn’t find the name with full vowels. And I want to share this story. I sent you this other manuscript to look through, and you write back to me almost immediately, and you say, “Something’s wrong. I’m finding it everywhere.”

Dawn: I literally did think something was wrong, because I knew how rare it was to find His name in a manuscript. You could look through 40 pages and then maybe you find one, and then you look through another 50 and then you maybe find one more. So, I start in Genesis on this manuscript, and there it is, Genesis 2, right away. And then, I keep going page after page after page, and so, I’m like, “Something must be wrong here. I’d better message Nehemia and find out.”

Nehemia: “The manuscript’s broken. It’s cooperating.” And I understand, after you went through a 700-page manuscript and didn’t find the name with full vowels even once, you open up this other manuscript, and it’s just there everywhere. And that’s actually a relatively new discovery we made in the last year, that in some of the manuscripts, the name appears almost consistently. And so, that’s something that we didn’t really know about, and nobody seems to have talked about it in the literature. There’s this book in Hebrew by a guy named Israel Yevin and he doesn’t say anything about that. That’s the definitive book on this type of topic. So, that’s pretty cool. Dawn, tell us, why is it that you keep looking? Why is it that you spend all day looking and after you’ve found the first one or the second one, you had two witnesses and you could have walked away. Why did you keep going to get into the 100 club?

Dawn: You know, my husband and I were talking about that. There are several answers I could give, but the most definitive answer I could give is Isaiah 56.

Nehemia: Come on, preach it, sister.

Dawn: I don’t know my identity. I don’t know if I’m a daughter of Israel by DNA, but I know that I’m joined to Yehovah through Isaiah 56…

Nehemia: Amen.

Dawn: …and part of that is loving His name. And I love to look for His name. You know, I have a science background. I love doing research. You throw any kind of research at me, and I’m all over it. I love doing that. But to do research into the most important thing in the entire universe, the name of the Creator, that just to me, I can’t get enough of it.

Nehemia: Amen. All right, thank you, Dawn.

Dawn: All right. Thanks, Nehemia.

Nehemia: We have once again made contact with T-Bone, who is coming to us somewhere from a nondescript building in North America. Shalom, T-Bone.

T-Bone: Shalom.

Nehemia: T-Bone, we have reached 1,000 manuscripts with the full vowels, “Yehovah,” and you’ve been a key part of that, and I want to thank you for that. I want you to share with the people what it’s been like, looking through these manuscripts for the name of Yehovah with full vowels.

T-Bone: It’s been an honor. I feel unworthy to do it, but it’s something that has been on my heart to do.

Nehemia: T-Bone, I want to understand how you had the khutzpah, the temerity, to open up the Bible, and look for Yehovah’s holy name when you’re not a Hebrew scholar, you don’t have a degree from some university in Hebrew, and you actually can’t even… I mean, you could read the Hebrew letters and the vowels, but you actually can’t read Hebrew fluently. So, what made you think you could do it?

T-Bone: Well, originally, I’m from Missouri, so it’s the “Show Me State.”

Nehemia: In my heart, I’m from Missouri. What are you talking about, you’re from Missouri?

T-Bone: So, I wanted to see it for myself.

Nehemia: So, Missouri is the Show Me State and you wanted to see it for yourself, okay. So, why didn’t you go to the scholars, and the Rabbis, and the Professors and ask them? Because you were looking at it even before you contacted me.

T-Bone: Well, it’s my responsibility to look into things for myself and not believe what…

Nehemia: Amen.

T-Bone: …just because someone else says it.

Nehemia: Thank God, someone said it. Halleluyah! This is what I’ve been telling people for years. Look for yourselves. You can actually see it for yourselves.

T-Bone: Yeah. Study it, and you can make your own decisions about it.

Nehemia: Amen. So, you started studying this yourself.

T-Bone: I also prayed that He’d give me the eyes to see His name, and to be able to give me the talent to see it and to find it.

Nehemia: Wow! What I love about that, T-Bone, is there’s this incredible combination there, of audacity on the one hand and humility on the other. You’re saying, “God, I want to know the answer, and I’m not just gonna blindly follow what people tell me. But I’m coming before You in humility and asking You for the wisdom and the discernment to be able to do this.

I looked up in my emails. You first contacted me in 2014. And I remember thinking, “This guy’s a nudnik,” which is a Hebrew word. He’s pestering me. And you’re asking about this manuscript with vowels, and then we went back and forth over time, and I thought, “Wow, this guy’s actually learning. That’s kind of impressive.” Like, I’m explaining to him about revia, mugrash, and things like that, you know, very technical, complicated things, and he’s picking up on it real quick. And then, when I finally was looking for the manuscripts… And I have it here in my emails, in my records. On February 10th, 2017, I contacted you and I sent you Oriental 4445 in the British Library, one of the key manuscripts of the Bible, and I asked you to look through it. And I really thought, “I’m gonna hear back from this guy in two or three years,” because it’s a long manuscript. February 12th, two days later, you wrote me back, and you’d found a bunch of places where you thought there might be the name with the full vowels, and I checked them and two of them were legit. And that was manuscript number six, and really, over the last few months I’ve been thinking, “We went from six manuscripts,” and we were in like the 700’s and I’m thinking, “What if we got to 1,000 within one year?” And then, by January 21st, 2018, less than a year from the day where we found the sixth one, we now have, as of today, I’m looking at the spreadsheet right now, 1,015 manuscripts with the full vowels, T-Bone.

T-Bone: Wow, amazing.

Nehemia: It’s impressive. Share with the people some of the things you do. How is it that you go through a 900-page manuscript and find the vowels in one or two places, or maybe not at all? Share what the process is, first of all.

T-Bone: Well, I just get comfortable, put on some music, and just scan through the pages, usually.

Nehemia: And so, you’re reading all of the biblical texts as you’re going?

T-Bone: No, I just scan for the pattern of the name. Do it column by column. I have a monitor set up on its end, so that helps me scan quicker.

Nehemia: Wait, I didn’t know this. You have a monitor turned 90 degrees? That’s awesome.

T-Bone: Yeah, long-ways, so the page fits better.

Nehemia: That’s awesome, I didn’t know you did that. That’s incredible. I need to do that now. That’s brilliant. I’ve actually seen people do that who work on manuscripts, but I never did that. That’s pretty cool. So, why did you first contact me, in 2014 it was, about these manuscripts?

T-Bone: Well, it’s kind of a long story, but the short version is, I saw your “Open Door” series. I think you did that with Keith. You were talking about the name, and after that I started looking through the Aleppo Codex myself, and I made a spreadsheet. I began looking for the name for myself, you know, because I wanted to find it and see it with my own eyes. So, I started making a spreadsheet and taking screenshots of every time I found the name where I thought it was the full vowels. And it turns out, it had the accents and stuff, but at that time I didn’t know anything about the accents.

Nehemia: And you know, what’s interesting is that when Keith and I looked at the Leningrad Codex years ago… it’s been computerized, and so, we were looking on the computer version, meaning people typed it in. And then we were comparing it with the manuscripts, and we had gotten a certain count of how many instances had the full vowels from the computer version. And then, when we actually looked at the manuscript, I said, “Wait a minute, that’s a revia, that’s not a kholam.” So, here you are, not an expert in Hebrew by any means, and the top experts in the world made that same sort of mistake. And what’s amazing to me now, T-Bone…I’m going to tell people something. You’re not Jewish, am I right, T-Bone?

T-Bone: Correct.

Nehemia: And you’re coming from a belief in the New Testament background, is that right?

T-Bone: Correct.

Nehemia: Okay, so when you’re looking at the Hebrew text, do you understand what you’re reading?

T-Bone: A few words here and there, but mostly no.

Nehemia: So, you don’t even understand the text, but you can identify the name of our Heavenly Father. And what blows my mind is you have looked at more manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible than the top experts in the world. And that’s literally true, today. I mean, how many manuscripts do you think you’ve looked through? I’m looking here at our spreadsheet. You personally have found the full vowels in over 700 Bible manuscripts. You’re part of a club of three people. I call it the “100 Club.” It’s you, Dawn and me. So, you’ve found it in over 700 manuscripts. Which means, to get those 700 manuscripts, how many thousands of manuscripts did you look through? Because in most of them you didn’t find it, right? Do you have any idea how many manuscripts you’ve looked through?

T-Bone: Not offhand, the average is about maybe 28 percent.

Nehemia: Yeah, right. And I was just looking at Dawn’s stats, your find rate is much higher than hers. And look, that could just be a random consequence of the type of manuscripts you’re looking at, right? Meaning there are manuscripts in the Cairo Genizah, and a lot of the manuscripts you were looking at were from a particular library. I know one of those caches of manuscripts that you looked through was 2,700 manuscripts, I can tell you. And that’s not the only one you’ve looked at.

So, if we’re really conservative, you’ve looked through 3,000 to 4,000 manuscripts. That is more than the top experts in the world, I can tell you that. That’s pretty impressive. I mean, look, you obviously have this passion for our Heavenly Father’s holy name. What’s the most interesting thing you’ve seen in the manuscripts?

T-Bone: I think one of the most interesting things is what we call the “B52 bomber.”

Nehemia: Come on, talk about that.

T-Bone: It’s the Russian National Library B52. It has the full name with all the vowels and a rafey over the last hey.

Nehemia: That’s right.

T-Bone: And we found prefixes full vowels.

Nehemia: Right, the inseparable prepositions. And technically, they’re inseparable particles, but close enough, because it includes things that aren’t prepositions. So, we’ve got these inseparable particles, and we originally found this in B52. How many of those have we found altogether, today?

T-Bone: I have around 107, so it looks like about 143 in total that we have right now.

Nehemia: Guys, he found 107. I only found 36. All right, that’s okay. I’m so blessed. It’s incredible that you’re looking through, like you said, a 900-page manuscript and you might not find the full vowels at all. And sometimes, you do find it. One of the ones that was really impressive to me, like I said, was that first one, Oriental 4445, where you’re going through hundreds and hundreds of pages, and then there are only two instances where it has the full vowels. At least that we found it. I mean, wow, that’s amazing.

I gotta tell you, one of my dreams in life, literally, one of my bucket list dreams of life was to be able to go through the entire Aleppo Codex and see everywhere precisely where it does or does not have the full vowels. And Yehovah has blessed me with you, that with your help, we’ve now done that. And we’ve actually accomplished that, and we know we can say with confidence today that there are, at the very least, seven instances with the full vowels, possibly a few more, but seven certain, definitive instances with the full vowels in the Aleppo Codex, and that’s a really big deal. That’s extremely important. This is a blessing to the world. I want to thank you for that, T-Bone. T-Bone, anything you want to share with the people?

T-Bone: Yeah, one other item that I really remember was the first time I saw Zephaniah 3:9 with the full vowels. That really hit me. And also, Exodus 34:6 with the full vowels. So, I think that was the day I’ve seen it in the Damascus Crown manuscript.

Nehemia: Yeah, that was the first one where we found it with full vowels, but I remember early on, you had this passion. You said, “Let’s look specifically at Exodus 34 and see if we can find other manuscripts that have it with the full vowels.” And we did, we found other ones.

T-Bone: Yeah, that was profound to me what those verses say, and then finding the full vowels. Why won’t you read it in Hebrew?

Nehemia: I will read it in Hebrew. Okay, that’s a good idea. Exodus 34:6-7, I’m gonna read both verses, because this is one of the key passages in the Bible. This is the revelation, where God reveals what we call in Hebrew the “midot,” His attributes. We never see God’s face. We never see His body, but we are told His attributes. It says, “Vaya’avor Yehovah al panav,” “And Yehovah passed over His face,” “vayikra,” “and he called out.” So, now Yehovah is calling out to Moses, defining Himself. What’s the first two words when He defines Himself? “Yehovah, Yehovah.”

T-Bone: Yehovah.

Nehemia: There it is. “El rakhum vekhanun,” “A God merciful and gracious,” “erekh apayim verav khesed ve’emet,” “long-suffering and full of grace and truth.” “Notzer khesed la’alafim,” “He who observes grace for the thousandth generation.” Wow, it’s just so beautiful. “Noseh avon vafesha vekhata’ah,” “He’s the one who bears iniquity.” It says “forgive” but literally, it’s “bear,” “He carries it on His back. He carries it on His back. He bears iniquity, transgression and sin.” This is how Yehovah describes Himself to Moses. Wow, it’s a powerful verse. It’s a powerful verse.

And so, here we have “Yehovah” three times. And it was your passion to find manuscripts that have… Now we’ve got it. Originally, the goal was to get number 6, then it was to get 10, and then it was to get 50. I remember saying to you when we first met in Israel, you came over to Israel to work on these manuscripts with me. I remember saying to you, “I wonder if we could get to 200 by the end of the year?” Amazing.

Now, can you say something about the Hebrew New Testament manuscripts? Because people don’t know this, but I’m there in Israel working on the name “Yehovah” in the Tanakh, and you’re kind of giving me a little jab in the side, saying, “Let’s look at some New Testament stuff. Let’s look at some New Testament stuff.” So, we ended up pulling all these New Testament manuscripts in Hebrew. That’s one of the next things we’re going to be working on. I’m really excited about that, studying these manuscripts of the New Testament in Hebrew. I actually have you on now live, and I actually just sent you a document of the New Testament. I’ve known about this document for many years, but only recently did we finally get this image in color, and I’ve sent it to you. And you’re looking at it now for the first time, am I right?

T-Bone: Correct.

Nehemia: Okay, and what do you see there, T-Bone, in this Hebrew text of the New Testament? Look, we don’t know if this is a Hebrew original or a translation from Greek. Because it really is of unknown origin, but it was found in the library. I mean, it’s so cool. There was a box on a shelf, and it had all these loose pages from dozens of different books. And among those pages were four pages of the New Testament in Hebrew. And what do you see there in this Hebrew New Testament, T-Bone?

T-Bone: Well, the first word I see is “Yehovah,” and then on the second line it says, “Yehovah.”

Nehemia: And is it with the full vowels?

T-Bone: Correct.

Nehemia: Halleluyah! All right, T-Bone. Thank you very much, Shalom.

T-Bone: Shalom.

Nehemia: I’m now on with Chris Clark, who is in Virginia. Shalom, Chris.

Chris: Shalom, Nehemia.

Nehemia: Chris, I’m so excited. We’ve reached 1,000 manuscripts with the full vowels, “Yehovah,” and you’ve been a part of this. Can you share with the people what it’s been like looking through these Hebrew manuscripts for the name?

Chris: It’s been pretty exciting. In 2011, I went to the conferences where you and Keith were teaching on the name with the first three manuscripts, Aleppo Codex, Leningrad Codex, Cairo Codex.

Nehemia: That’s what eventually became the “Open Door” series. But originally, it was a series of conferences that Michael Rood had done.

Chris: Right, and that got me interested in the name then, so I started out looking in those manuscripts for the name.

Nehemia: Oh, wow.

Chris: And it was interesting to see it in the manuscript for myself, because I’d never learned about the name before.

Nehemia: Right. You know, I was born and raised in Illinois, but deep in my heart I’m from Missouri, which is the Show-Me state. And that’s what I love about this. And I really love that anybody, you don’t have to be a Hebrew expert, anybody can open up these manuscripts and see it for themselves.

Chris: And that’s true, because I can’t speak Hebrew, I can’t read Hebrew. But learning from you how the name is supposed to look, going through the manuscripts, the name just pops out off the page, because that’s really the only word I know.

Nehemia: Right. That’s awesome. What I love about that is that you can’t read Hebrew, but you can read those four letters and you know what those vowels look like. And through this process, you’ve learned what some of the accents look like, because it’s very easily confused with certain accents. And it’s really so simple. It really is a simple language, the Hebrew language. There’s only 22 characters, and the number of vowels is limited, and the number of accents, as well, is limited, so it’s doable. Somebody can learn to identify that.

And I’m looking at my records here, I see you looked through some of the manuscripts in the British Library and found the full vowels. That’s pretty exciting.

Chris: Right.

Nehemia: Tell us, why is the name important to you? Because from your name, Chris, I’m guessing you’re not of Jewish extraction.

Chris: No, I’m not. You know, over the years you’ve been sharing pictures from the first three, four, or five manuscripts you found. And there’s always been people that said, “Well, knowing God’s character is important, but knowing His name really isn’t that important.” So, I decided to look in the Bible and see for myself. Was it important or not?

Nehemia: So, what verses did you find that support this idea that it’s actually important to know, not only God’s character, but His actual name?

Chris: Okay, one is Exodus 9:16. “And in the very deed for this cause have I raised thee up for to show in thee My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth.”

Nehemia: Wow, so this is actually even before they got out of Egypt. He’s saying this to Moses. Wow. What else have you got?

Chris: Isaiah 12:4. “And then that day shall you say, ‘Praise Yehovah, call upon His name, declare His doings among the people, make mention that His name is exalted.’”

Nehemia: His name is what represents Him. This is why the Hebrew Bible makes such a big deal about names. Think about all the namings. I mean, this is actually really profound, now that we’re talking about this. Think about creation. God creates the animals, but then He brings them to Adam to give them names. And that act of naming the animals is Adam, in a sense, participating in their creation. He’s putting these labels on the animals, and then those become the names of the animals. Then when we hear the names of the animals in Hebrew, in the Bible, the animals we’re allowed to eat, the animals we’re not allowed to eat, well, Adam, a human being, created those names.

And so, names throughout the Bible are these really important things. Sometimes, we’re not told explicitly, right? Sometimes it’s implied why somebody has a name, but other times we’re told about Adam, and Eve, and Seth, but then Hevel, Abel, we’re not exactly told the reason. “Hevel” means “vanity,” right, because he was murdered. He didn’t reproduce. He was killed and his blood spilled into the ground at a young age. And so, these names and all the 12 tribes were told the reasons for their names. I’m stating the obvious, but when Jacob wrestles with the angel, he changes his name. And God changes Abraham’s name from Avram to Avraham. Names are this important thing in the Bible. To just trivialize and say, “We don’t need to know His name, we just need to know His character,” that misses the entire context of the Hebrew culture that the Bible was revealed in.

Chris: Right.

Nehemia: Give us some other verses, Chris.

Chris: Psalm 29:2. “Give unto Yehovah the glory due unto His name. Worship Yehovah in the beauty of holiness.”

Nehemia: Wow, powerful stuff. All right, so back to your experience of searching through these Hebrew manuscripts. Did anything happen while you were searching through these Hebrew manuscripts? Did you have some experience that you want to share with us?

Chris: Well, like I said, in the beginning I was looking through the three, the Aleppo Codex, Leningrad Codex, Cairo Codex, and I was kind of surprised when I would find the name written in the Bible. The vowels for “Adonay” were not there, and they were supposed to be, according to what the popular teachings are on the Internet.

Nehemia: Oh, what do you mean? It’s a fact that those are the vowels, “Adonay.” It’s a fact that happens not to be true, but it’s a fact.

Chris: But then in recent months, there were some instances of the name with full vowels being found in the manuscript with the eraser dots around the name. And then in the margin, the word “Adonay” was written with the vowels of “Adonay,” so you had both sets of vowels written on the page.

Nehemia: Right, and that’s really cool, the juxtaposition there. You see yud-hey-vav-hey, and you see the vowels it has, and then you see Adonay in the margin essentially replacing it, because it was a mistake that they wrote yud-hey-vav-hey. And you can see right there they’re not the same vowels, they’re side by side.

Chris: Right. So, that’s probably one of the most interesting things recently, is to be able to see them both right there, to know that they’re different, and to know the scribe knew they were different.

Nehemia: Yeah, and you know what? He knew how to write the vowels of “Adonay.” I mean, that’s one of the arguments that people have made, “Well, they had to revert to a shva because it’s not a guttural letter, the yud.” Okay, then why is it we’ve now found manuscripts that do have the vowels, “Adonay?” It’s very rare, but we’ve now found manuscripts where the scribe said, “I actually want to put in the vowels ‘Adonay,’” and he did it. So, why didn’t he do it in the other manuscripts? Because those aren’t the vowels of “Adonay.”

Chris: Exactly.

Nehemia: All right, Chris, thanks for joining us. Shalom.

Chris: All right, thanks Nehemia. Shalom.

Nehemia: I’ve got Keith Johnson on the line here, coming all the way from Shanghai, China. Ni hao.

Keith: Ni hao. You still remember your Chinese, Nehemia. I’m impressed.

Nehemia: [Chinese] Keith, we’ve got 1,000 manuscripts with the full vowels of the name “Yehovah.” And actually, as of right now, at this moment, we have 1,015. I wanted to get you on the line, because you were involved in a process of these manuscripts. I had two manuscripts, and I was happy with two manuscripts. That was my two witnesses. They were the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex, and it didn’t even occur to me for years to look for a third manuscript until something happened. I want you to share what that was.

Keith: Well, as usual, you got me into some trouble. It was good trouble as it pertains to this topic, I would say, regarding the name. If you remember, some years ago, those two manuscripts, which actually you introduced me to, Nehemia, way back in 2002. It was funny. One of those manuscripts, the Leningrad manuscript, here I had within the context of my own Bible from seminary, and I brought it to Israel. You looked at my little Hebrew Bible, and you said, “Within the pages of that Bible the name appears.” And I’m like, “What do you mean? I’ve had this all these years. I didn’t even begin to look at it.”

That led to a wonderful process, Nehemia, where we got a chance to see with our own two eyes, my own two eyes after you introduced it to me, the name written with full vowels in both the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex. I was like, “Wow, this is great.” I was invited to do a series on TV for a Christian television station down in Texas and I told them exactly what I was gonna do. And they said, “Absolutely, bring the witnesses.” And so, I took the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex and put them on an airplane, Nehemia.

Nehemia: And those are big books. That was the Aleppo Codex that Reggie White gave you, right?

Keith: Absolutely.

Nehemia: He gave me one, you one, Qadri Ismail one, and one for himself. Yeah, I still have that, too.

Keith: What a gift. So anyway, I was so excited thinking, “Well, you know what? Rather than talking about these manuscripts, and rather than talking about what’s in the manuscripts, I’m gonna bring these manuscripts and put them on TV and introduce them to the world. Let the world see for themselves, we’re not making this up.” And then it happened.

Nehemia: What happened? They saw the manuscripts and they were convinced, right?

Keith: Well, the people that were producing it were really quite impressed, and I did an entire series. I think it was 12 parts, or something. And halfway through the series, the issue came up that I was using these two manuscripts and actually showing people these two manuscripts and there were some people that were involved that said, “Hey, you must not do that. You cannot do that.” They went on and on, saying, “You can’t show the people these things, it will confuse them. They might think for a minute that maybe the name is not what we proclaim the name to be.” I mean, the people that are listening, I don’t want to bore them too much. But what it really did, and I’ll never be able to thank you enough for one of the things that you suggested, Nehemia. What you suggested, which I think was a game changer, at least for me, was that you said, “Hey, let’s go see if we can find some other evidence.” And we went to the library and went and found the Cairo Codex of the Prophets, if I remember correctly.

Nehemia: That’s correct.

Keith: So, before you had your experts, T-Bone and Dawn, I was your little assistant. And if you remember, we went to the library. And you handed me one book and you took another book. And you sat down and started looking, and I started looking. And I would come across what I thought was yud-hey-vav-hey, hand it to you, and you’d say, “Give me the book.” And you’d start looking through. I’ll never forget it. I took a picture. And then every single time, “No, that might be a smudge.” And then, Nehemia, oh man, what a great moment. You were sitting in the library and there, in the Cairo Codex was yud-hey-vav-hey with the three vowels. So, we had the full name in the Cairo Codex of the Prophets.

Nehemia: Well, that was the third witness, the Cairo Codex of the Prophets. And then you found the fourth witness, that was the Damascus Crown.

Keith: It was Damascus Crown. And I have to be honest, here’s where I do lose a little bit of my memory. I’m getting older. Maybe it’s because I’m on the other side of the world.

Nehemia: You’re upside down. You’ve been standing on your head for all this time.

Keith: I’m upside down. There’s blood rushing to my head. And I have to say something, Nehemia. There’s so much that’s going on regarding this, these witnesses in this part of the world, that those years, when we were dealing with this sort of thing, people really have taken that ball and they’ve run with it. So, the Damascus Crown, we find the name, four consonants and three vowels. And I remember us discussing that and saying, “Wow, this is amazing. We now have 100 percent increase from what we had. We now have four.”

Nehemia: A year-and-a-half ago, over the summer, I went to Cincinnati, where the Hebrew Union College has a manuscript, one of the key Masoretic manuscripts, and that was number five. So, I probably called you last January, and then I said, “I’ve got 10 Rabbis. I need to find 10 Bible manuscripts.”

Keith: And I’m like, “Good luck with that.” It took us forever to find 10.

Nehemia: Right, so in 15 years we had five Bible manuscripts, and I want to find five more. Talk to you when I’m 70, or whatever.

Keith: And I want to say something about this, Nehemia. I’ve been tracking along since January and you’ve let me get a chance to see what you’ve been doing, and talking to the people that you’re talking with. We were in Boston together, Nehemia, where you went outside of the bounds of comfort and asked people, scholars, about the process that you’ve been through. So, I’ve been watching this, and witnessing this. When I got the note yesterday that said, “We’ve found 1,000. Call and let’s celebrate,” I knew at that point that this really is a huge deal. I mean, people probably don’t appreciate what it means, but they’re going to appreciate to see the fruit of the labor that you and your team have put into this, to find 1,000-plus witnesses with the four consonants and the three vowels.

And what you’ve done that’s even more important, I want to say this, that I think is even more special, is that you have involved people, the scholars and others that are well respected, but you’ve also gone to people and said, “Hey, do you want to be a part of this process?” But to say to Dawn and to T-Bone, “Here’s what you’re looking for,” and for them to find it, I think this is so cool. This is amazing. It’s like the nations are coming together and they’re discovering the witness of the name. I cannot tell you how exciting it is to watch it, to have been a part of it early, but now to see where you’re at now, I don’t know if I’ll ever catch up. I mean, this is game-changing.

Nehemia: Look, you’ve got to catch up to Dawn. Dawn just joined the 100 Club. Literally, I’m looking at the spreadsheet, the database right now. She has 101 manuscripts that she personally discovered the full vowels in.

Keith: Can you do us a favor? I don’t know if you’ve addressed this. Nehemia, of the 1,000 manuscripts, how many do you think you had to look for to find 1,000? Like is there a percentage?

Nehemia: Yeah, so that’s really interesting that you asked that. Dawn’s rate is 15 percent and T-Bone’s rate, he estimates at 28 percent. I have no idea what my rate is, I don’t know, but one in four sounds about right, in mine. And that might just be a function of, we had Dawn look through this one particular set of manuscripts, the Lewis Gibson collection, and there it might just be 15 percent. She found all the ones that were there, I don’t think she missed any. She did a very thorough job there. So, let’s say roughly one in five, right? That means you’re looking at four manuscripts that don’t have it in order to get one on average that does have it.

Keith: That is absolutely amazing. And so, time-wise, why so much effort, Nehemia?

Nehemia: It’s really interesting you say that. I was in San Antonio with Deb and her husband. We had printed out every page of the Aleppo Codex, and we were organizing them for another project I’m working on, which is to get precise, 100 percent accurate statistics on the name in the Aleppo Codex. Right now, I can tell you the name appears seven times with the full vowels. What I can’t tell you is how many times it appears without the full vowels. I can tell you that number is approximately 4,300. I’m not satisfied with approximately. I want to know the exact number.

So, we’re sitting there and we’re going through this manuscript, the Aleppo Codex printed out, and we’re organizing the pages and we’re looking through. I turned to Deb’s husband and I said, “I wonder the detractors, how many manuscripts are they sitting and doing this work for?” I mean, it’s a lot of work. I don’t know if people appreciate that. It really is a lot of legwork. I mean, I will on a regular basis be shooting emails back and forth with T-Bone at two in the morning, three in the morning, and he’s responding, because we’re both up working on this. And why am I working on it? I can’t sleep. You were the one who said it. Would you tell the people what you said?

Keith: I said you were “Under arrest by the Spirit.”

Nehemia: I used to have a rest. Yeah, arrested by the Spirit. Right.

Keith: It’s something like that, and it’s regarding something that’s biblical like this. I mean, it certainly has happened to me in the past. And it seems to me that that’s definitely what’s happening to you. I mean, think about it. What you’re working on is helping, can I say, a prophecy come to pass? That people would know the name, and that people would understand His name, and that they would proclaim His name. And here, you’re working on this project, and Nehemia, there’s just no way, when you called in January and you said you’re looking for 10, there was no thought that you would ever get to 100. And then, when you got to 100, I’m like, “Well, 500? 1,000?” I mean, at this point, whatever the number is, it’s just overwhelming. But the point is that you’ve been diligent with this and now we’re seeing the fruit of the labor.

Nehemia: And Keith, the best way I can explain what this is like is something that… you actually quoted this verse in your book, “His Hallow Name Revealed Again.” It’s Jeremiah 20:9. “Then I said, ‘I will not make mention of Him, nor speak anymore in His name,’ but His word was in my heart, like a burning fire shut up in my bones. I was weary of holding it back, and I could not.” That’s Jeremiah. This is what I feel like. They told me, literally, “Don’t speak that name anymore.” I’ve literally been told that, “Would you please stop speaking this name?” And it’s Jeremiah. I could not, velo ukhal. And I can’t do it. I’m not able. This is what keeps me up until three and four in the morning, searching through these manuscripts. One manuscript, two manuscripts, three, four. And there’s no name, and then I get to number five, I can’t. Then it’s like, “Okay, well, now I’m going for another hour.”

Keith: Nehemia, can I just ask you a question? And I think this is the question for the people who don’t even maybe understand the significance of this. You’ve been a person from the time I met you that always said, “Hey, listen. We’ve got to find the sources. You’ve got to see it for yourself with your own two eyes.” So, out of all those manuscripts that you guys have been looking through, what’s been the percentage of you finding the name “Yahweh” in the manuscripts?

Nehemia: Zero. I have never found the name “Yahweh.” There’s actually one variant that we found, Keith, and actually, it was Dawn. She found it in two manuscripts. And we did find a variant set of manuscripts, and instead of shva, kholam, kamatz, which is pronounced “Yehovah,” we found in two manuscripts, one time in each, shva, kholam, patakh, which is pronounced “Yehovah.” And that’s actually the set of manuscripts where they routinely switch back and forth between patakh and kamatz, because presumably in that area where they were copying these manuscripts, they pronounced the two the same, the way we do in modern Hebrew, as well.

Keith: Well, let me tell you why I asked the question. I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus regarding the pronunciation of “Yahweh.” The point is, one of the challenges that we’ve brought forward to people over and over again is please, you’ve got this other pronunciation. Can you find a written Hebrew manuscript witness? And unless you can tell me differently, that challenge has not yet been met, other than for you to be able to look for the full pronunciation of the name.

And so, my point is that you’re not finding manuscripts that say, “Here’s the name ‘Yahwahawah.’” And again, I want to be clear. I’m not trying to downplay the people that see it that way. But as it pertains to why this is so significant; this is not your opinion. This is manuscript evidence. Now, from 5 to 100, to 1,000, that, to me, is a game-changer. And I would like for people to know the significance of that, that you’re talking about something that’s actually seen, that was actually written in ancient sources.

Nehemia: And really, for me, Keith, this goes back to my initial prayer. This was a prayer in the late ‘90’s that I had. My prayer was, I’d read all these different theories, and opinions, and journal articles, and I’m talking about from serious scholars, about how the name is to be pronounced. And I’d read about Yahweh, which is a scholarly guess, and it’s based on these Greek sources, and there are other things in Greek sources. And my prayer was, “Father, I want to be able to call on Your name and point to the evidence for that name in the Hebrew manuscripts by the scribes who preserved your word.” Because if it’s an opinion, today I can have opinion A and tomorrow I can have opinion B. Your opinion can change. Facts are facts.

And so, for a number of years my prayer was, “Father, I want to be able to call on Your name, not based on any man’s opinion, but based on the evidence in Your Bible.” And that’s why it’s so significant to me. That’s why it was significant for me when I found the first two manuscripts in 2001, and when we found the Cairo Codex of the Prophets. That wasn’t your opinion, it wasn’t my opinion. There it was, I could point to it. This was literally my prayer. On the Day of Judgment, if you ask me, “Why did You call me by that name?” I can point to the book, to the word of God and say, “Your name was written that way in Your word.” And that was my prayer, and that’s what this is the culmination of, these 1,015 manuscripts.

But we’re not done, Keith. We’re gonna keep going. And I’m really excited! We’ve got some really cool things on the horizon, and I hope you’re gonna be a part of that. One of the things that I just sent this, live on the air, recorded live, to T-Bone, was a manuscript of the New Testament. We’re not saying where it’s from. And I asked him, “T-Bone, you’ve never seen this manuscript before. What do you see?” And the first word on the page was “Yehovah.” And what I really want to do is share that manuscript with the people, because it really is an exciting story. And I want you to be involved in that process. I think you’ve been a very important piece of the puzzle. You bring something to the game, and I want you to be part of that.

Keith: Well, I gotta go circle back to the beginning of this interview, Nehemia. You asked the question about what happened that took us beyond the two, and it was controversy, and that controversy really ended up being a place of blessing. Now, I will say something. You invited me… about a couple months ago we were in Boston together at the International Society of Biblical Literature. And I have to tell you something. It kind of happened again, and now I feel that fire again that’s burning about the need to really help bring clarity for people.

And I think what you’re doing, honestly, by what you’re doing, I just think it’s bringing to the forefront again something that’s just not gonna go away. I mean, am I right or wrong? Prophetically, there’s going to come a time when He’s gonna cause His name to be known. And is it possible? Here I am, 7,000 miles away, we’re having this conversation. You’ll send this out to people. Is it just possible that we could be a part of that process of His name coming forth in the nations? And I’ll tell you something, even over here, Nehemia…

Nehemia: Can I read the verse? Isaiah 52:6. “Therefore, My people shall know My name. Therefore, they shall know on that day that I am He who speaks it. Behold, it is I.”

Keith: And I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t know how much we’ve talked about this, but even in this part of the world they’re beginning to have, not only an appreciation, but a practice of proclaiming His name. We’re finding people all over the world, as you know, that you talk to you and interact with. But I just have to say, there are even more people who want to understand this information. So, I hope, yes, I will be willing to do anything as it pertains to this, and maybe that will throw some water on the fire that’s burning in my bones. Everything I think will kind of calm down, you do something like this, and I gotta tell you, Nehemia, you’ve started a bonfire.

Nehemia: Keith, would you end in prayer?

Keith: Absolutely, I would be honored. Father, we thank you so much for the opportunity to put our hands to this plow. I thank you for Nehemia’s work. I thank you for the work of those that he’s with, for T-Bone, and Dawn, and everyone that has been a part of this process, the many scholars, that our eyes have been opened as a result of this research that Nehemia’s doing, and pray that it would continue. And Father, I just ask right now that even as we think about what the future is, we know one thing for sure, and that is that Your name will be proclaimed. As you said in Exodus 9, “This is but indeed for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power, in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.”

Father, while we’re here on this earth, let us be the instruments of proclaiming Your name and sending forth the wonderful blessing of running into Your name and understanding it in a way that would just be powerful and amazing, and that people all over the world would begin to do that, what you say in the last days will take place, that Your name shall be proclaimed. And it is in Your name, Yehovah, that we pray. Amen.

Nehemia: Amen.

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