Prophet Pearls #47 – Re’eh Bonus (Isaiah 66:1-24)

You are listening to Prophet Pearls with Nehemia Gordon and Yoel Halevy. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: Shalom and welcome to a special bonus episode of Prophet Pearls on Isaiah 66 verses 1 to 24. This is a special section read in synagogues around the world in honor of Rosh Hodesh, New Moon Day. They’re reading one of my favorite passages in the Bible, Isaiah chapter 66 – I know I said that about lots of passages, but it really is one of the most exciting and coolest passages in the Bible, I absolutely love it.

I wrote to Keith and I said, “Keith, we need to do this special episode together.” I was calling this the lost episode. And Keith wrote back to me, he said, “Look, Nehemia, I’m working on my Red Letter Series”, and guys, you can go to Keith’s website, bfainternational.com, and find out about his Red Letter Series. He’s going through the Hebrew Matthew, looking at the words of Yeshua in Hebrew. And he said, “Look, I can’t record this with you because I’m too busy doing my Red Letter Series.”

And he wrote to me as follows: “You have my blessing, Nehemia, to find another Pearls Partner for the lost episode.” And lo and behold, I had completely given up on doing this lost episode, and Yoel Halevy arrived in town in Jerusalem from the great north of Israel. Shalom, Yoel!

Yoel: Shalom uvracha.

Nehemia: Some of the people may be familiar with you from new moon sightings and the Aviv Search, and some maybe even more familiar with you from programs that you’ve done on your own. So what is it that you do, Yoel? Tell us a little bit about yourself before we dive into Isaiah 66, one of my favorite passages in the Bible.

Yoel: So I was born in Israel, I’m doing a bachelor’s degree in history and biblical studies at the Open University of Israel. And long do this degree. I’ve been doing a lot of studies throughout many, many years by myself. The saga started when I was about 15. I’ve been wanting to this degree for a very, very long time. Basically, what I do is I have a website called hebrewinisrael.net, which is a website where I do videos and articles and biblical Hebrew, biblical studies, biblical history. I also have a Facebook called Hebrew in Israel. Everything’s basically “Hebrew in Israel”, where I share smaller things, not big articles and so on, but you can go there and see moon reports that I do as well – you brought me into the whole moon report thing – and also little articles that I write.

Nehemia: And we’ve actually had observations where I think you were like one of only two people… In fact, I remember once I traveled with Keith Johnson to the southern border of Israel, near Eilat, and we went there, we drove five hours just to sight the moon, and we didn’t see it! But you did, up in northern Israel, and one other person did somewhere else. So you’ve been involved in new moon sightings. You’ve been teaching Hebrew. Tell us about your teaching Hebrew, before we get into Isaiah 66, which we’re going to get to soon…

Yoel: The Hebrew lessons are things I do online over Skype. I have people from so many walks of faith. I’ve been working with a lot of people from different movements in the United States and Europe. Sometimes tourists come to Israel and I meet up with them. What I do is I basically teach people Hebrew from scratch. I have people like that, and I also have people who come to me when they’re ready, who’ve done certain courses, and they want to do something a bit more advanced. So basically, the levels I go through are from the lowest to the highest possible, and it’s basically for people who want to learn in great depth, but also want to learn the basic things. I’m not just going to throw you into some university course where you’re going to be crying your eyes out because it’s so difficult.

I was born here in Israel, raised in an Orthodox family, but it’s more traditional because my parents came from England, so it’s more of a European traditional.

Nehemia: I do detect a little bit of a London accent there, if I’m not mistaken. Or Southampton?

Yoel: Yeah, my father’s from Milford.

Nehemia: Milford? Never heard of it; but go ahead. [laughing]

Yoel: It’s a neighborhood in London. My mother’s actually my mother’s a Birmie, my mother’s originally from Birmingham. But she grew up in Southampton for a while. Then my parents came to Israel, I was born into a traditional family, which means we were raised Orthodox, but not exactly. And then the more we lived here, the more orthodox we became, and then went through a very, very orthodox period, especially when I was 18, 17-18. Went to yeshiva for really long while, I joined the Army, I went actually to the ultra-Orthodox unit, which wasn’t really ultra-Orthodox, it’s a kind of a funny situation.

But after I got married – and I got married during my military service – my wife and I decided to move to an ultra-Orthodox community here in Jerusalem, and we lived in that community for eight years, and I literally wore a long black coat.

Nehemia: I’m going to save that story for when we get to the part in the section which doesn’t talk about it but is tied into that. We’ll see that in a few minutes. All right. You’ve got this website and you teach Hebrew to people from all kinds of different backgrounds, and even though you have that ultra-Orthodox in your background, you’re open to really anybody who wants to come respectfully to learn the Hebrew language.

Yoel: Yeah, that’s exactly what I do.

Nehemia: Awesome. That’s awesome. All right, tov. Let’s get into Isaiah 66.

Yoel: Actually, I have a memory of sitting in a Yemenite synagogue hearing the man who told me to read the Yemenite style. And the thing is that when they read it, it’s very, very dramatic. I mean, the European style is very subtle. The Yemenites, when they come to prophecies, they really do almost yell it out.

Nehemia: So we’re not going to yell it.

Yoel: We’re not yelling. But it’s very dramatic. I have engraved it in my memory, this elderly man, almost screaming at the top of his voice, and it’s giving a nice way to the words of the opening here.

Nehemia: So can you read it that way?

Yoel: I don’t think my voice can do it.

Nehemia: Oh, come on. If you’ve got to yell it, read it, and let me just read it in English here, I’ll translate, it says: “Thus says Yehovah: ‘The heavens are My throne and the earth, My footstool.’” And then he says, “Eizeh bayit asher tivnu li” – where is this house that you’re going to build Me, and where is the place of My rest? And what he’s saying is, “Look, you’re going to build Me a house? I mean, the heavens are My throne! You’re going to build me some building?”

And what was happening is that people were thinking, “We could just bring sacrifices, and it’s this magic bullet where we bring the sacrifice to the Temple and it doesn’t matter what we do in our lives.” And God is saying, “Look, the heaven is My Temple. The whole universe is My temple. It’s not about some building and some animal that you slaughter.” But read it in your Yemenite style that you learned.

Yoel: I haven’t done in a very long time, so I’m going be very-very rusty. “Koh amar Adonay ha-shamayim kisi veha’aretz hadom raglai eizeh bayit asher tivnu li ve’eizeh makom menuhati.”

Nehemia: Okay. Very cool.

Yoel: This actually reminds me of the verse of the prayer of King Solomon in 1 Kings, I think Chapter 8.

Nehemia: Jump to it!

Yoel: “Ha-shamayim u-shemey ha-shamayim lo yekhalkelukha.” King Solomon admits that the Temple that we have in front of us…

Nehemia: He doesn’t just admit, he’s emphasizing this: “Guys, don’t think that God literally lives in this building and this is going to be the answer to all your problems. That’s not what this is about.” So can you read us that, from 1 Kings 8, the Prayer of Solomon? I love this prayer. What I love about this is he’s on his knees with his hands raised in this… up towards heaven, praying this prayer.

Yoel: In Hebrews it says: “Ki ha’umnam yeshev Adonay el-ha-aretz hinneh ha-shamayim u-shemey ha-shamayim lo yekhalkelukha af ki-ha-bayit ha-zeh asher baniti.” He’s basically saying: “Is it even possible that God will dwell in the earth and behold the heavens and the heavens of the heavens cannot contain You. Even if this house which I built.” He’s basically saying, “This house I built is not going to contain You. This is just something symbolic.”

Nehemia: And this is really the problem. You know, we’ve a lot to talk about in this portion. So I’m going to jump to verse 3 because in verse 3, I think he gets to it. Well, I’m going to read verse 2 real quick, he says: “And all these my hand has made, and all these were.” I love that! In the Hebrew: “Va-ihiyu kol-elleh” – “and all these things were,” “I made them, and they were.” “Ve-el-zeh abit el-ani u-nekhe-ru’ach ve-hared al-devari” – “And to this I look to the humble – or the afflicted – and the broken in spirit and “ve-hared al-devari” – and he who trembles at My word.”

Actually, this is an important word, this word ‘hared’, because in modern Israel we speak about Haredim, which we usually translate as ultra-Orthodox, which is a movement in Israel today. A lot of people – especially non-Jews – think that they’re called Hasidic Jews, but that’s just a common misconception. Hasidic Jews are a subset of Haredim, of ultra-Orthodox. Not all ultra-Orthodox are Hasidic. Like you were Haredi, or lived in an ultra-Orthodox community, but you weren’t Hasidic.

Yoel: No, we were actually the opposite.

Nehemia: Right. Okay. Look, I grew up going to a Haredi school in Chicago, but my people were very anti-Hasidic, but they were Haredi.

Yoel: And that’s exactly where I came from, the exact same group I was with.

Nehemia: Okay. So anyway, what they actually did is they read the same verse we just read and they said, “Hey, that’s us. We’re the ones who tremble at God’s word.” Let’s move on. Read verse 3 for me, and I’m going to put you on the spot, make you read it, or just translate it, actually. Don’t even read the Hebrew, because we know…

So actually, guys, look, he’s doing the same thing I’m doing. We’ve got a Hebrew text in front of us, there’s no English translation here, I can pull the English up on my computer, but I’m not going to right now. How would you translate this verse reading as a native Hebrew speaker who’s studying for his Biblical Studies degree?

Yoel: I would say this actually says: “He, who slaughters an ox, strikes a man; he who offers – or sacrifices – a lamb is beheading a dog; he who brings up a grain offering is the blood of a swine.” It’s basically very negative.

Nehemia: All right. And I’m going to stop you there. Here’s the interesting thing. This has been translated to English in two ways, I looked it up in the English. It could be translated as “he who slaughters an ox, it’s as if he smites a man – as if he kills a man.” Or it could be translated: “he who slaughters an ox and smites a man.”

Yoel: I’m not so sure about that translation.

Nehemia: I think they’re both valid. This is poetry, and in poetry you tend to be missing connective words.

Yoel: We usually call it “the very loose grammar biblical poetry”.

Nehemia: There’s something to that. So the point is that some English translations are saying, “They’re offering sacrifices while at the same time they’re killing people and worshiping idols – or that their sacrifice is as if they’ve killed somebody.”

Yoel: Which is the way I usually understand it.

Nehemia: Both are definitely possible. I think maybe in the end it doesn’t matter, because his point is, “Look, these sacrifices mean nothing to Me. Your sacrifices are worthless to Me.” And He says it at the end: “Gam hem habaheru be-darkhehem.” They have also chosen their own ways, and they’re abominations, their sole desire. So he’s saying, “Look, your sacrifices, you think this is some magic pill that you bring the sacrifice and you’re forgiven?” I mean, this a theme throughout the Tanakh. Right? Can you talk a little about this?

Yoel: Yes, basically, I think that a lot of people were looking at the sacrificial system in the Torah, and they were trying to compare it to the sacrificial systems in other nations, where a lot of magic was also involved, at least that’s the way I understand it. Which means, “There’s this god, and if we want to convince him to do something, so we’re going to press these buttons and bring these sacrifices and do these rituals, and it’s going to cause them to do something.”

And if I remember correctly, for example, in Egyptian mythology, even the gods use magic as well. So there’s this power that’s even above the gods that enables you to control everything.

Nehemia: This is very interesting. I actually did a couple of episodes with this atheist professor, a scholar named Richard Carrier. And look, there are a lot of things I don’t agree with that he says, but he’s a brilliant guy, and he says in one of his books that the Jews believed in this magic at their Temple. “Blood magic”, he calls it, because they would bring blood and that would somehow take away the sins. And he’s not entirely wrong, because it’s against that very doctrine that Isaiah is speaking here, meaning, there were Jews who believed in blood magic, that I could do anything I want in life, as long as I bring my sacrifice. I can kill people, as long as I bring my sacrifice. I can have some involvement with the blood of pigs, as long as I bring my sacrifice and my flour offering, because it’ll cover over my sins, it’ll wash away my sins with the blood.

And the whole point here is: no, it doesn’t work that way. What the prophets are saying – the way I see it – when they speak about bringing rivers of oil and blood, and saying, “Look, this isn’t what it’s about. It’s about repentance and obedience” – which you’re about to see. It’s a nuance, and the nuance here is the sacrifice and the blood has no power in itself. These are rituals that God has commanded us, and if we observe these things with the broken spirit and the contrite heart, as it says in Psalm 51, and we have true repentance, then God will accept our prayer or our sacrifice. But if we’re sinning, our prayer is an abomination to the Creator of the universe. That’s it.

Yoel: And to that I say, amen.

Nehemia: All right. So let’s jump ahead now. Or is there anything else you wanted to add?

Yoel: No, I’m saying this is the type of stuff, for example, that we heard when I was growing up as well. The rabbi was standing in front of us and saying, “Hey, guys, you know, there’s no point if you’re going to come to the synagogue and pray, if after you’re done with that you’re going to do whatever you want.” There’s really no point in going on Yom Kippur and saying, “Oh, I sinned, I sinned,” and then you run off and…

Nehemia: Wait, they didn’t see what you just did. He was beating his chest when he said, “I sinned”, which is literally what you do on Yom Kippur.

Yoel: It’s actually automatic with me. I always do that. [laughing]

Nehemia: So you’re saying beating the chest and saying “I’m a sinner.” So Yoel, this reminds me of something in the New Testament. Can we go to the New Testament? Look, guys, I usually blame Keith whenever I go to the New Testament, but I’m here with Yoel, who comes from an Orthodox Jewish background. And can we go to the New Testament?

Yoel: I would say yes, because in my training, and also as an historian, we actually treat the New Testament as a historical book.

Nehemia: And you actually have studied New Testament in your in your college and university courses.

Yoel: Yes, I have done some courses where we touched on the New Testament.

Nehemia: Excellent. Luke, 18:9: “He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt.” And this is a parable, verse ten, “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector.” And remember, in this culture, tax collector…

Yoel: Tax collectors were the enemy…

Nehemia: It’s the most evil person imaginable; they were parasites working for Rome. All right. Verse 11: “The Pharisee standing by himself was praying thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people, thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’” That’s the parable, and here’s the conclusion of the parable: “I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I love this! So you’re sitting here in the 21st century talking about repentance, and you just intuitively start beating your chest. You don’t even realize you’re doing it, I have to tell the people, because you don’t even know you’re doing it. And here, 2,000 years ago, this Jewish rabbi from the Galilee is telling this parable about two men who went to the Temple. One is repenting… and is this is interesting – he says, “thieves, rogues, adulterers,” this sounds like something from Yom Kippur services, doesn’t it?

Yoel: Reminds me of “Ashamnu, bagadnu…” And we actually list different potential sins, right?

Nehemia: Right! You give a list of all the sins, even the ones you haven’t necessarily done, just in case you did it, you know, you don’t want to forget. You give the full list of potential sins, and he’s doing this here, but he’s not coming with true repentance. The one who’s coming with true repentance is this tax collector who’s like, “God, I don’t even have the words, I don’t have the list from the prayer book.” But he’s beating his heart – which, in a second, you’re going to tell us what that means – he’s saying: “God be merciful to me, a sinner. Like, I suck. [laughing] Please accept this from me. I don’t have the formula, the words, I just know I’ve done… I want You to please accept my repentance, my true repentance.”

That’s what this is talking about, the Gospel truth. That’s what Isaiah is talking about. “Don’t come to Me with these sacrifices while you’re still going out and standing… that’s not true repentance. I want the nekhe ru’ah, which I love. That’s such a great phrase, ‘nekhe ruah’. I don’t know how to translate in English, ‘broken heart’ or something, but the word in Samuel is ‘nekhe raglayim’, ‘the broken legs’. And here it is the ‘nekhe ru’ah’, ‘the broken spirit’. So tell us, what is this beating of the chest, Yoel?

Yoel: So, beating the chest… I’ve been trying to figure out a whole bunch of rituals that we do, the symbolism behind the rituals that we do. And I walked into a bookstore and by chance I found a book written by a Doctor of Biblical Studies named Yael Shemesh, and she wrote a book about mourning rituals in the biblical world.

Nehemia: And that’s mourning with a ‘u’.

Yoel: Yeah, mourning with a ‘u’, over the dead. And she mentioned something interesting there. One of the practices that they used to have when you mourned over someone, especially if you had professional mourners – these were people who were hired to cry for you.

Nehemia: Look, they still do this today. If you go to a Sephardic funeral, aren’t there professional wailers?

Yoel: There are people who scream and yell sometimes.

Nehemia: And by the way, I think they still do this in New Orleans, where they hire professional mourners.

Yoel: Yes, and in the Arab world I think they still do it sometimes. So one of the things they do is they beat their chests. And, for example, the Alawites, they cut themselves.

Nehemia: And that’s actually mentioned in the Tanakh – that you’re not allowed to do that. The Alawites are this group in in Syria and Lebanon who preserve these ancient Canaanite customs. I think all Shiites do, if I’m not mistaken. They cut themselves over the death of some prophet of theirs. But the point is, it’s an act of mourning to cut yourself. We don’t do that. That’s forbidden in the Torah.

Yoel: But what we do find is that they used to tear their clothing and beat their chests. Now, the idea of beating your chest, if I remember correctly, the symbolism behind it is as if you are hurting yourself to identify with the fact that someone died – in the same way they used to cut themselves.

Nehemia: And who died, in this case, when the tax collector is at the Temple beating his chest? Who died?

Yoel: Well, he basically says, “I died, I deserve to die.”

Nehemia: So this gives so much more power to what Isaiah is saying and what it’s saying here in Luke. So the tax collector goes to the Temple, and he stands before God, and he says, “God, I deserve to be dead.” And he beats his chest and he says, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner. I should be dead by all rights.” And he’s acknowledging that by beating his chest. And the Pharisee is like, “Look, I’m really righteous. I’ve got the words, I’ve got the formula, I’ve got the blood magic sacrifice. I am not like other men. They deserve to be dead. But I’m special.”

In other words, there are these two mentalities that are being talked about 2,000 years ago, that are being talked about in Isaiah. And you’re telling me you went to the synagogue in the 20th century and they were still talking about this! That’s amazing! So at the end of verse 4, he says, “I called and they didn’t answer. I spoke and they didn’t hear” – which also means obey. So it’s about obedience. “They did which I didn’t want,” et cetera. Okay. So read verse 5. The Haredim here is mentioned again. Can you read me that?

Yoel: “Shimu devar-Adonay haharedim el-devaro” – “Hear the word of the Lord, those who fear His word.”

Nehemia: And again, these are the ones who quake, who shaking and trembling before God, and the word is ‘haredim’. And again, there’s this movement in Israel today which we call – incorrectly, I think – ‘Haredim’ and it’s translated to English as ultra-Orthodox. But literally they’re saying, “No, we’re the Quakers.” And that’s interesting – as there’s a movement in Christianity called the Quakers too.

Yoel: They’re both dressed in black.

Nehemia: That’s interesting. [laughing]

Yoel: Well, it’s because I think both movements kind of showed up around the same time…

Nehemia: In Europe, when people dressed in black.

Yoel: Yes, it’s what people wore.

Nehemia: And part of that probably had to do with the fact that they didn’t have colored dyes. So you either wore dingy white or black, I would guess.

Yoel: Well, if this is the 18th century, they probably already cracked through the new dyeing process.

Nehemia: Verse 5; read the rest of verse 5. This is interesting how you might translate this. Go on, verse 5.

Yoel: “Amru akhekhem sonekhem menadekhem le-ma’an shemi yikhbad Adonay ve-nireh be-simhatkhem ve-hem yevoshu.”

Nehemia: So we already got a lot of information just from where you put your brakes, but how would you translate that? Not so simple. So you read this in English it’s no question. What’s the problem? But we’re both reading this in Hebrew. We don’t of English in front of us. How would you translate that?

Yoel: I’m going to try to at least interpret this. I actually sat down last night with the commentary, trying to figure out some of the sentences here. Some of it’s not easy.

Nehemia: So this is an important point, guys. You’ll read in the English and you’ll be debating what the English means. Just to get to the English, you’ve got to go through the Hebrew, and it’s not always obvious how to translate this Hebrew. There are a number of ways to potentially translate it. So what do you have here?

Yoel: So I would think maybe it says, he’s quoting: “Your brothers, those who hate you, those who spurn you, and they say, ‘For my name, the Lord will be exalted.’” I think he’s quoting what these people are saying.

Nehemia: See, I would think “they spurn him for the sake of my name.” Which is an interesting concept for those looking at the New Testament. But here there’s the concept, I’m pretty sure, in the Tanakh… in other words, these people spurn those who are loyal to God because of God’s name. [laughing]

Yoel: Well, I’m looking at the cantillations, for example, and I can actually put a stop on the word ‘menadekhem’.

Nehemia: So let me translate, literally, how I would read it. Actually, you translate it first.

Yoel: Well, the way I read this: “Your brothers, those who hate you, those who spurn you, say” – ‘say’ doesn’t appear, I’m adding it.

Nehemia: No, it says “amru,” it does say it. “Amru ahekhem sonekhem menadekhem.”

Yoel: Yeah, “they say, ‘For my name’s sake, the Lord is exalted.’” They’re basically saying, “I’m doing everything great. The Lord is exalted by my deeds.” But he says, “ve-nireh be-simhatkhem” – “But we will see in your rejoicing.” Now he’s turning around to those who are being spurned there, saying to them, “But we will see your rejoicement and they will be – yevoshu – will be ashamed.”

Nehemia: Right. Here’s how I would translate it: “Your brothers who hate you, who despise you – or spurn you – for my name said, ‘yikhbad Yehovah’ – ‘may Yehovah be glorified’”. And there is a concept there, because we have these scenes throughout the Tanakh where people see the glory of Yehovah. In other words, let’s see this glory of Yehovah, and we will see your rejoicing, “ve-hem yevoshu” – “and they will be ashamed.” Meaning, these people who despise you. That’s how I would read it.

Yoel: We agree on most of the points, but who’s saying what is maybe a little debatable.

Nehemia: Let’s read some English translation. So this is the King James Version, which some people call “The Authorized Version”. It says, “Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at His word; Your brethren that hate you, that cast you out for my name’s sake,” [whispering] yes, “said, ‘Let the Lord be glorified: but He shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.’” Okay. I think that’s closer to the one I said, but it doesn’t prove anything, of course. You could be right too.

In JPS 1985: “Hear the word of the Lord, you, who are concerned about His word. Your kinsman who hate you, who spurn you because of me, are saying ‘Let the Lord manifest his presence’” – so that’s yikhbad, meaning, let us see the kevod Yehovah, the glory of Yehovah, “so that we may look upon your joy, but theirs shall be shame.” And the point is, guys, look, Yoel is not wrong. This is a valid interpretation, what he’s saying. That’s not how I would read it, but definitely you could read it that way. And I bet if we looked at enough translations we would find the ones that agree with you. But we have my interpretations, so let’s stop, there’s no reason to go further. [laughing]

But it’s pretty cool, I mean, the way I’m reading it here, I really do think it’s “those who spurn you because of my name.” That’s such a powerful concept; for me, personally, I’ve dealt with people who have spurned me because I speak the Creator’s holy name. And the next words are “yikhbad Yehovah” – “let Yehovah be manifest, let’s see His glory, let’s see the glory of Yehovah.” And what’s interesting, I actually showed you yesterday some coins and art that I saw in Europe, where people had this theme and art called The Glory, which means the glory of Yehovah. These were non-Jews who would write the name Yud-Hei-Vav-Hei with light coming from His name inside clouds, which is a theme we see in Exodus and in Ezekiel describing kevod Yehovah, the glory of Yehovah. And so here it’s, “those who despise because of my name.” Those people are saying, “Yeah, let’s see this glory of Yehovah.” That’s so cool, that’s powerful stuff! [laughing]

Yoel: That’s a very way of reading it as well. It’s such an interesting thing here for me that maybe if we look at this is where they’re quoting “yikhbad Adonay”.

Nehemia: And, by the way, you say Adonay. Do you ever say God’s name?

Yoel: I think that there really is no prohibition. I think that there is a lot of background to why it happened.

Nehemia: So for the sake of this recording, guys, just so you understand, when he says ‘Adonay’, in the Hebrew it says Yud-Hei-Vav-Hei, which I pronounce as ‘Yehovah’, and we’re going to respect that.

Yoel: It’s just that I don’t. I don’t go around using it. But I think what’s interesting is maybe they’re saying, “May the Lord be exalted.” And these guys are saying, “The Lord… let us just go to the Temple and do whatever we want, and then go back home and do whatever we want.” I think there’s the argument of those who really quake before God and those who just want a…magic bullet, you called it?

Nehemia: Blood magic, that’s what Richard Carrier calls it. And I think he’s 100 percent right in that the people Isaiah is addressing think this is some kind of blood magic – “I’ll just bring the sacrifice and I can do whatever I want, I can go eat pig after that,” like, literally, he’s talking about that, “because I brought my blood magic to the Temple and now I’m fine. I brought my sacrifice.” And he’s saying, “No! You can’t do that.” And so this is kind of like the people who say… that are now mocking those who are loyal to God. That we’re agreeing on, right?

Yoel: 100 percent, yes.

Nehemia: All right. Let’s skip ahead to verse 7. It’s so powerful! Look, you’re a father, you’ve got a whole bunch of kids.

Yoel: Yes.

Nehemia: So I think I’m going to have you talk about verses 7 through 9, which is a birth scene. I’m going to read this in English from the JPS. “Before she labored, she was delivered; before her pangs came, she bore a son.” Those are birth pangs. “Whoever heard the like, whoever witnessed such events? Can a land pass through travail in a single day? Or is a nation born all at once? Yet Zion travailed and it once bore her children! Shall I, who bring on labor, not bring about birth? says Yehovah. Shall I who cause birth shut the womb? says your God. Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad all who love her.” This is rejoicing over the birth. “Join in her jubilation, all who mourned over her!”

Yoel: So anyone who’s ever been in the birth process – I mean, I’ve never given birth because I’m a man.

Nehemia: I’ve seen videos.

Yoel: Well, I’ve been in the room. Well, they have rules here about…

Nehemia: Wait – did they kick you out of the room?

Yoel: There was one case they kicked me out of the room. But basically, the process is difficult. It’s painful. Women go through… I mean, men, seriously – do you think you’ve been uncomfortable? Think about it. Women carry these babies for nine months and they have to give birth. I mean, it’s completely nuts. So this is why I admire my wife so much. She’s a person who’s able to carry pain, and I have friends who are doulas. We had discussions about it as well.

Nehemia: And it’s my understanding that when they speak about the pain scale, that birth is considered like the like the worst pain in the world.

Yoel: Probably. What he’s describing here is pretty amazing, because he said, “Oh, before she even goes into pains, she’s going to give birth.”

Nehemia: Right. Well, what’s really powerful to me about this is – this is all a metaphor, of course – that it’s God giving birth to Israel. So God here is being metaphorically described as a woman in labor and giving birth to Israel. Or you could say it’s Israel who’s giving birth. But the way I read it here in verse 9, “Ha-ani ashbir ve-lo olid?” And I love that word ‘ashbir’. How do you translate that?

Yoel: I would say it’s from the root shever, which is to cause pain.

Nehemia: So that you’ll find this fascinating as a modern Israeli: what’s the word for crisis in Modern Hebrew?

Yoel: Mashber.

Nehemia: And there’s a verse that says, “The baby has reached the mashber and there is no strength to give birth.” And what is the image there? Mashber is what we would call in English ‘crowned’, or ‘the place of crowning’, I don’t know what the technical term is.

Yoel: It’s called crowning.

Nehemia: No, but the baby has reached that point of… shever is literally a break, a split. So the baby has crowned and there’s no strength to give birth. So he’s saying, “‘Will I crown and cannot give birth?’ says Yehovah.” He’s speaking about Himself giving birth to Israel! Meaning, “Look, we see the head, I’m going to give birth, I’m not going to stop.” He says, “Im-ani ha-molid ve-atzarti?” – “Am I the one who is going to give birth and stop, says your God?” No, this is going to happen.

Yoel: And one of the things actually I started thinking about lately is this whole fact that we always think of God as a man, whereas in truth, really, you know, this whole gender discussion… I mean, people say, “Oh, God is a she.” And I’m like, “Why was this thing any relevant to the God of Israel? This is not the pagan gods of the ancient world. This is a God that’s above it.”

Nehemia: Look, we think of God as our father, but there are places in the Tanakh where God is a mother. And here God is a mother giving birth. There’s nothing you can do about it, verse 9, that’s what it says. But isn’t is great that the word for crisis comes out of – and you could possibly appreciate this more than me –that the woman has crowned and she just said she can’t push anymore, there’s no more strength. And that’s a crisis.

Yoel: We actually had that with my third son.

Nehemia: Oh, really?

Yoel: We had that. It was very difficult for him to come out. His head was just way too big.

Nehemia: So that word ‘crowning’ is where we get the Modern Hebrew word for ‘crisis’, because the image is that the baby is crowned and the woman’s like, “Look, I can’t do it anymore.” People die from that. And throughout history, millions, maybe hundreds of millions of women, died from that. So here He’s saying, “Am I going to crown and not give birth?” That’s how I would translate verse 9. But God here is symbolically a woman.

Yoel: Isn’t there a term ‘yoshevet al hamashber’? Maybe the mashber is also the place of birthing as well?

Nehemia: Right. So by extension, it’s the chair. And it could be also that the baby’s head has reached that chair, and there’s no more strength. But it’s the same thing as crowning, maybe it’s slightly… I think it’s pretty much crowning.

Yoel: It’s basically describing the final stages of the birthing, and there’s the word ‘mashber’ or ‘shever’ associated with the entire thing there.

Nehemia: Right. So in other words, it’s the chair that the midwife, or doula, or whatever the term would be in ancient times, the “midwife” is the word we use. In any event, “So who has heard like this and who has seen?” “Ha-yukhal eretz beyom ehad?” – “Can a land pass through birth pangs in a single day?” “Im- yevaled goy pa’am ahat?” “Can a nation be born in one moment?” “Ki-khalah gam yaldah Tziyon et-baneyha” – and here Zion is the mother, so it’s kind of a mixed metaphor – “For Zion has gone through birth pangs and given birth to her sons.”

And look, there are people who have looked at this verse, Isaiah 66:8, and said, “Look, this is the State of Israel, 1948.” On May 14, 1948, there was no such thing as the State of Israel, and by the end of May 15, the nation was born in one day, and boy, were there some birth pains.

Yoel: But there was a pregnancy in between, obviously.

Nehemia: And look, you can make a very good argument that the birth pangs was the Holocaust, that you have some severe birth pangs. Look, in Jewish sources, they talk about “khevlei ha-Masiah” – “the birth pangs of the Messiah.” I’m not the first one to say this, that there was an extremely painful travail, but at that moment, literally on one day a nation was born in May 1948. And so some people will say that that’s a fulfillment of this prophecy, which is very, very possible.

All right, tov, I want to play an audio here of someone doing the cantillation for these verses. And what I love about it is, there’s this Israeli television drama called Srugim. And in Srugim, there’s this character named Reut. And by the way, what I love about Srugim is that it actually takes place in my neighborhood, I’ve seen them filming it on the street. And there’s one thing that they filmed in front of my mother’s house, literally. So in this television series, which takes place in my neighborhood in Jerusalem, there’s this one character, a woman, who wants to learn to do the cantillation of the prophet’s portion. And she chooses this specific passage. And it’s so beautiful, first of all, because she’s a woman singing the cantillation. I think it’s extremely beautiful.

Anyway, we’re going to play the recording here, and what’s so powerful here is it’s this woman is reading the section about the woman giving birth. She could have read anything! And I think the reason she’s doing it is because in certain circles there are women who gather on Rosh Hodesh, on the new moon. And this is actually the portion, as we said, for the new moon. So the new moon is something that’s celebrated specifically by women in modern Israel. And so she cantillates. And it’s just so beautiful, I think. We’re going to listen to it now.

Audio: “Kol sha’on meir kol me-hekhal kol Adonay meshalem gemul le-oyvav. Beterem takhil yaladah be-terem yavo khevellah ve-himitah zakhar. Mi-shama kazot mi ra’ah ka’elleh hayukhal eretz be-yom ehad im-yevaled goy pa’am ahat ki-khalah gam-yaldah Tziyon et-baneyha. Ha-ani ashbir ve-lo olid yomar Adonay im-ani ha-molid ve-atzarti amar elohayikh. Simhu et-Yerushalayim ve-gilu bah kol-ohaveyha sisu ittah masos kol-ha-mitabelim aleyha.”

Nehemia: It’s just such a beautiful passage, and to hear a woman cantillating the section about this beautiful image of Israel’s rebirth. I mean, this is Israel being born again! This is powerful stuff! Israel born again in this apocalyptic image. It’s talking about Israel being reborn in a moment, in a day, and I believe this happened in 1948. All right. Should we skip to verse 14?

Yoel: Yes, of course.

Nehemia: Look, this is what Keith would call the money ball.

Yoel: This is the money ball – I’m going to Keith for a moment here. It’s the money ball, because this is a very, very famous verse for a very specific reason. It’s a very famous verse because there is a stone in the Western Wall where some pilgrim – probably around the 4th century, I think they claim – went in and carved part of the words, the beginning of this verse, on that stone. And it used to be that before they dug around it, people could walk next to it and actually look directly at it.

Nehemia: Now it’s high up. And guys, if I can get one, I’m going to share a photo of this on my website, nehemiaswall.com. By the way, what’s your website, Yoel?

Yoel: Hebrewinisrael.net.

Nehemia: Okay, so Yoel is hebrewinisrael.net, I’m nehemiaswall.com, and I have Makor Hebrew Foundation. He has Hebrew in Israel. Two separate things going on there.

So this is beautiful. So this is why you’re saying it’s a famous verse, but read me the verse. What do we have here?

Yoel: I think the best part is towards the end, but anyhow, it says, “U-re’item ve-sas libkhem ve-atzmotekhem ka-desheh tifrakhna ve-nodah yad-Adonay et-avadav ve-za’am et-oyvav,” It think “ve-nodah yad-Adonay et-avadav” is the most important part.

Nehemia: Really? Let’s translate this. “And you will see, and your heart will rejoice, and your bones shall flower like grass – or flourish like grass.” I don’t know that grass flowers, I guess it does flower, that’s what we talked about in the Aviv Search, flowering barley. “Your bones will flower like grass, and the hand of Yehovah shall be known upon His servants and wrath to His enemies.” So you’re saying “the hand of Yehovah being known upon his servants…”

Yoel: Because as a result of that happening, the glory of God will be revealed. That’s why I find that part more important.

Nehemia: Okay. And it is important, no question about it. But for me, “your heart’s rejoicing and your bones flowering like grass,” I see this as a reference to the resurrection of the dead. I don’t know how you see it. I mean, what does this mean? Our bones are lying in the dirt after we’re dead and our bones are going to flower like grass. Look, if this was the only verse, we wouldn’t have resurrection, but it’s not the only verse. I think this ties into other verses in Isaiah 26, we’ll look at that in a second, and Daniel 12, which we have to save for the end.

Yoel: I would say the division would be like this: “Vere’item ve-sas libkhem” – “you who are alive, you who can see this, your heart will rejoice” and “ve-atzmotekhem ka-desheh tifrahna” – “your bones will flower like grass”…

Nehemia: So what is, “your bones flower like grass?”

Yoel: I think it’s for the dead.

Nehemia: Right, it’s clearly the image… it comes down to whether you take this metaphorically, that your bones flower like grass? I guess anyway there’s a metaphor, because bones don’t flower, but do you take this to mean that dead people will come to life? Or do you say people who are symbolically dead? In other words, some people have said, “Well, the nation is in a really bad state, and the nation will have this spiritual or national resurrection. I take this as referring to individuals actually coming back to life.

And again, if this was the only verse, I don’t know that I would say that. Look, we have to look at the other verses. Just jump to Daniel chapter 12, verses 1 and 2: “At that time…” And what’s interesting is, how you can start the chapter with “at that time?” Because “at that time” refers to whatever happened in chapter 11. So whoever made the chapter break here wanted to separate chapter 12 from chapter 11. In the Hebrew manuscript there’s actually no break.

But anyway, it says “at that time Mikhael – Michael, the great,” I’m going to call him angel, it’s not what it says, but the great officer, “the great angel shall stand” – “ha-omed al-bene ammekha,” “who stands over your people,” et cetera. And then it says in verse 2: “Ve-rabim miyeshene adamat-afar yakitzu” – “and many of those who sleep in the dust of the Earth shall awaken,” “elleh lekhayei olam” – “these for eternal life,” “ve-elleh lekharafot le-dir’on olam” – “and these for shame, for eternal…” something that we’ll talk about when we get to verse 24.

Yoel: Well, I would say ‘kharaf’ is really more for cursing.

Nehemia: Okay. Shame, cursing – it’s a bad thing. But let’s save the word ‘dir’on’ to the end. But here it’s talking about people awakening, and not everybody who awakens from their death is going to have a good time here. [laughing] There are some people here who are going have a hard time, who are going to have this eternal bad thing happen to them.

Yoel: But what’s interesting happens in this world.

Nehemia: Yeah, it does. And look, I’ll be honest with you – and maybe we have to save this for verse 24 – there’s no way I could read Daniel 12:2 without understanding it within the context of Isaiah 66. And we’ll talk about that in a minute. But let’s try to stick… I’m going to too many different places.

Can we quickly read Isaiah 26? It’s just one verse. Verse 19 says, “Yikhyu meytekha” – “your dead will live.” Isaiah 26:19. Look, how could you disagree with that? It says, “nevelati yekumun”, and I would translate “nevelati” as having the poetic ending, so nevelati yekumun, “the corpses shall arise,” “hakitzu ve-ranenu shokhney afar” – and now the prophet is calling upon the dead, he’s saying, “Awaken and sing, those who dwell in the dust.” “Ki tal orot…” et cetera. “Va-aretz refaim tapil” – “and the land of the ghosts will be cast down.” So death is going to be destroyed here. And that’s the context here: death is going to be defeated, and the dead will rise.

And again, if we only had this one verse, I don’t know. But we have Isaiah 26:19, Isaiah 66, and we have Daniel 12, too. And of course, there’s Ezekiel, which we’ll talk about as well, which is a whole separate subject. All of these to me tie together as what we call an in Judaism ‘tkhiyat hametim’, ‘the resurrection of the dead’. And that resurrection of the dead, we see in Isaiah 66, somehow coincides with the final judgment. So let’s look at that, and then we’ll get to the last few verses, and we’ll have you cantillate. There’s so much stuff here!

So we have the resurrection of the nation, the rebirth of the nation, and now he’s saying not only is your nation going to be reborn, but individual dead people are going to rise from the dead. Their bones are going to flourish. They’re going to flower like grass. And I love verse 15 – we could do a whole thing on it; it says, “For behold, Yehovah will come with fire and a storm his chariots”. And by the way, this is actually the motto of the Khativa Sheva, the 7th Brigade of the Israeli tank force, and I actually do a teaching where I talk about what happened in the Yom Kippur War, it’s in my book, Shattering the Conspiracy of Silence. Guys, it’s really cool – that God comes like a storm in His chariots, and they applied that in modern Israel to tanks. And it just about happened – like, almost literally, you can say that happened – in the Yom Kippur War. Go read the chapter in my book, Shattering the Conspiracy of Silence about that. But let’s skip ahead here.

Yoel: I don’t know if the English can convey everything it says here, “ve ga’arato be-lahavei-esh.”

Nehemia: Powerful. “His rebuke with tongues of fire,” I think you say, ‘tongues of fire’; “lahavei esh.”

Yoel: It just doesn’t sound the same.

Nehemia: It’s much more beautiful Hebrew. Let’s talk about verse 16. Verse 16 is the final judgment. Can we? Can you read me verse 16?

Yoel: Verse 16: “Ki va-esh Adonay nishpat uvekharbo et-kol-basar ve-rabu khalalei Adonay.” Well, that’s kind of scary.

Nehemia: Wow, it’s very scary. We think of this end times like, “Oh, everybody’s going to be happy, we’re going to be floating around all happy. Are you kidding me? It’s, “For within fire Yehovah will enter into judgment,” that’s the nifaal, the verb stem of reciprocal action, “and with the sword all flesh there shall multiply the slain of Yehovah.” So there’s going to be this resurrection, and there are going to be people who are going to be killed. They’re going to rise up for judgment, and they’re going to die as a result. And look, people talk about eternal hellfire. What I’m reading here is that they’re going to die a second death and they’re just going to be dead forever.

Yoel: Basically, they will never come back.

Nehemia: They’re going to be dead, and they’re going to have this eternal shame. But that eternal shame is when they’re dead. And we’re going to get to that in a minute.

Verse 17 is describing some sort of idolatry. We’re not going to read the whole thing here, guys, but it’s people who are purifying themselves and sanctifying themselves, thinking that they’re doing good because they’re worshiping some forbidden form of worship. And then I love here, “okhlei basar ha-khazir” – “those who eat the flesh of pig and the abomination and the mouse,” “yakhdav yasufu” – “together they will be swept away – or destroyed – says Yehovah.”

And verse 20 – it’s talking about the nations here. These nations coming from far away. Guys, we’re going to have to skip some of this. We have no choice we’re running out of time. It says, “And they shall bring your brothers from all the nations as an offering to Yehovah.” It’s describing Gentiles bringing Israelites back to the Land of Israel, the ingathering of the exiles, as an offering to Yehovah. They’re saying, “Hey, look, God, we have some Israelites for you. These were exiled in Russia. These were exiled in China. These people were exiled in some other nation, and we’re bringing them back to you.” That’s powerful stuff! This is happening today. I think this is an ongoing process and it’s happening today. That’s what I think.

Yoel: I agree.

Nehemia: It says, and I love this, “Basusim uvarekhev ubetzabim uvapradim ubakirkarot” – all kinds of different animals. And it’s interesting, the word ‘tzabim’, which in Modern Hebrew means turtles, but in Ancient Hebrew it’s a type of wagon. “‘Upon my holy mountain, Jerusalem,’ says Yehovah,” they’re going to bring them back, “ka’asher yavi’u bene Yisrael et-ha-minhah bi-khli tahor beit Yehovah” – “as the children of Israel bring a flour offering in a holy vessel.” In other words, so, too, shall the nations bring the Israelites back in these wagons. And I love the word ‘kirkarot’, I looked up that word, because in Modern Hebrew that has a certain meaning, which is a word for a wagon they traveled in in the 19th century, that they guy traveled around…

Yoel: It’s like a little wagon of sorts.

Nehemia: It’s of a type of wagon, but in Modern Hebrew it’s a specific type of wagon.

Yoel: I think it’s specifically an open wagon where you sit in the back.

Nehemia: From what I’ve been able to find, in biblical Hebrews it’s related to the word ‘kirkar’, which is to dance. And so this might have been the sort of wagon that kind of wobbled in some way, but they’re going to bring you back in dancing!

Yoel: So even if someone has something like a 1960s banged-up car, they’re going to use that as well.

Nehemia: Or it’s some kind of thing where they’re dancing in celebration. In other words, this word describes David coming before the Ark, the ‘kirkar’, and he was dancing around, and it’s the same word here, there may be a connection there. That’s pretty cool.

Verse 20… so these nations are going to be dancing and happy and bringing back in wagons of all kinds, offering the Israelites to Yehovah, saying “Here, we’ve got these Israelites.”

Can we stop for a minute and talk about how this prophecy contrasts with what the Muslims teach? One of the core Muslim teachings, and I believe it’s in the Hamas charter, I’m pretty sure it is, where they say that in the final day the mountains and the trees will shout out and say, “There is a Jew hiding behind me!”

Yoel: I think it’s in the Hadith.

Nehemia: Yeah, but it’s a core teaching of modern-day Islam, in any event. They’ll say “There’s a Jew hiding behind me!” I’m pretty sure it’s in the Hamas charter, I could be wrong. But it’s something that they talk about quite a bit. The mountains and the trees will say “There’s a Jew hiding behind me,” and so will the rocks, and they’ll say, “Here, here, here’s the Jew, take him to slaughter him!” And that’s the Muslim narrative.

The Isaiah narrative is that the nations of the world will come in repentance and say, “Here, our offering, Father of Creation, are these Israelites who were exiled in our lands. We’re bringing them to You, not for slaughter, but we’re repenting. This is our offering before the Creator.” This is powerful stuff. Isn’t that an amazing contrast between their evil narrative and what Isaiah says? To me that’s amazing.

And then verse 21, I want you to talk about it because your name is Levi. You’ve got to talk about this. He’s Yoel Halevy! Yoel is a Levite. “Ve-gam me-hem ekakh le-Kohanim Leviim amar Yehovah” – “And also from them I will take for Kohanim – for Priests – and Leviim – or Levitical priests – says Yehovah. From whom? From the Gentiles?

Yoel: So that’s the dilemma. I was actually looking at some commentary. Some people say, “There are Levites and Kohanim being scattered amongst the nations, and they’re going to be found.” Meaning that even if you are scattered far away, you still have your rights to your heritage as being a Levite or a Kohen, or that there will actually be people that can function as servants in the Temple from the nations. I’ve seen both interpretations.

Nehemia: That’s some powerful stuff. So what you’re saying is, it’s possible that somebody… You know that expression, “He was a poet and didn’t know it” in English? So there could be somebody who is a Levite or a Kohen and doesn’t even know it.

Yoel: I personally know someone who discovered this. He never even knew he was Jewish. He knew nothing. He was raised as a Christian, and he discovered that he’s a Kohen.

Nehemia: Wow. And that could be one of the understandings of this, that these goyim, these nations, these Gentiles, will come to God and say, “Look, I have an offering for you, this offering is a Jew who was in my land.” And God would say, “You know what, Mr. Gentile bringing the offering? You’re not even a gentile. You’re actually a Levite. You’re a Kohen.” That could happen according to one interpretation of Isaiah.

Yoel: But this is the warning: you have to wait until this happens, because I’ve also bumped into people who say, “Oh, I’m a Kohen or a Levite,” and they have no proof of it whatsoever. So my response is, “You might be. But wait for this to happen.”

Nehemia: And that day you won’t need proof, because the proof will be the Creator of the Universe saying: “I’m taking you as my Kohen! I’m taking you as my Levite!” And there won’t be a matter of proof, for the voice of the Creator of the Universe proclaiming that person a Kohen – that’ll be all we need, right? Can I get an amen, Keith…

Yoel: [laughing] Keith.

Nehemia: Can I get an amen, Yoel Halevy?

Yoel: Amen. I don’t scream and yell, it’s not my type…

Nehemia: Oh, come on.

Yoel: I’m too English.

Nehemia: Be more leybedik.

Yoel: Be more Israeli, you mean? [laughing]

Nehemia: More spiritual. Verse 22. I’m going ask you to cantillate this. I’m going to translate this on the fly from Hebrew, so bear with me. “‘For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I make, our standing before Me,’ says Yehovah, ‘so shall your seed and your name stand.’” Meaning, this is a guarantee that this is going to happen. This is going happen just as sure as there’s going to be a new heaven and a new earth.

The descendants of Israel and those nations who bring Israel as an offering, they are going to stand before me. And it says, “Ve-hayah midei-hodesh be-khodsho umidei Shabbat be-Shabbato” – “and it shall come to pass from one new moon to the next.” Or you could translate it as “‘Every new moon and every Shabbat. All flesh will come to bow before Me,’ says Yehovah.” “All flesh.” What about the sinners? What does it mean “all flesh is coming and bowing before Yehovah”?

Yoel: Only those who survived.

Nehemia: Yeah, they’re dead [laughing] and we’re about to hear about them. And I understand this – and I’ve looked in Jewish commentators, and they agree, which is good, because they’re right. In other words, what does it mean? Are they going to come to local synagogues in Muncie, New York? What’s being described here? The understanding of this – the way I read it and other commentators read it – is “all flesh is going to come to bow down before me” means in the Temple. I mean, it’s pretty clear in the Hebrew, “come before Me to bow down” doesn’t mean you’re going to be going to your local church in Rome. All flesh is going to come before Yehovah, and you think about how is that possible? There are going be like transporters, like “Beam me over to the Temple, Scotty,” like, what’s going on? And that might be, I don’t know, but I believe it literally is true what it says. Every Shabbat is going to be quite a logistical project for somebody. Every Shabbat… maybe there won’t be that many people alive. [laughing]

Yoel: Maybe it’ll be a miracle, and there’ll be space for everyone.

Nehemia: I mean, there will be, clearly. But in any event, everybody who’s still alive is going to come every new moon and every Shabbat… There’s still going to be Shabbat in the world to come. And a new moon in this new heavens and new earth. That’s pretty cool. That’s amazing! And this is why they read this section on Rosh Hodesh, on the day of the new moon in synagogues, because it mentions the new moon and the Shabbat. So if Shabbat and the new moon coincide, then you read this section.

Yoel: This actually reminds me a little bit of the story with the woman who gave birth after the blessing of Elisha. This is in 2 Kings, I think. She takes the donkey and she rides off, and the servant says, “It’s not Rosh Hodesh, nor a Shabbat.”

Nehemia: No, her husband says, “What do you need the donkey for? It’s not new moon or Shabbat.”

Yoel: Yes, there was a practice on Shabbat on the new moon to go and be the presence of the moon in some way or another.

Nehemia: Right. And look, they were in the Northern Kingdom. They couldn’t go to the Temple in Jerusalem, in that situation with Elisha. But here he’s saying, “You’re going to come before Me and bow down. Every new moon, every Shabbat, all flesh.” Not just the Jews, not just Israel, but all flesh are going to come before the Creator of the Universe. Is that all human beings?

Yoel: “Kol basar,” could be even animals.

Nehemia: Is Georgia going to be there?

Yoel: I think she was a good dog.

Nehemia: I’m not sure she’s allowed in the Temple, though. She’s definitely not allowed in the Temple. She’ll have to stay outside on her haunches. I hope she’s there. I really do.

Verse 24: “And they shall go out” – where do they go out? From the Temple! – “and they shall see the corpses of the men who transgressed against Me, for their worms shall not die and their flame shall not be extinguished.” Meaning, we have these corpses that are being eaten by worms forever, and they’re burning forever. “Ve-hayu dera’on le-khol basar” – “and they shall be a dera’on for all flesh.” What is dera’on? It’s a word that appears twice in the Tanakh. Once in this verse, Isaiah 66:24, and once and Daniel 12:2.

Yoel: It has to be three times, because I think we had dera’on earlier as well.

Nehemia: No, we didn’t. Yes, we read Daniel 12:2.

Yoel: Oh, right it was Daniel.

Nehemia: And in Daniel 12:2, I’m pretty sure in the time of Daniel nobody knew what it meant. And so there’s a gloss, and the gloss is harafot. That’s my interpretation of that. Meaning it says “le-harafot”. Let’s look at it.

Yoel: Actually, today, in Modern Hebrew when you say “ve-hu yizakher le dera’on olam…”

Nehemia: It comes from this phrase.

Yoel: Yeah, everyone will remember him a very negative context.

Nehemia: It’s a bad thing, whatever it is.

Yoel: It usually means to cuss someone’s name as well.

Nehemia: To curse their name?

Yoel: Yeah.

Nehemia: Oh really? That’s the Modern Hebrew based on a certain interpretation of Daniel 12. But what does it mean in the context of Daniel 12:2? So it says again, “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, these for eternal life and these harafot” – which you translated as “cursing.” I would say it’s a bad thing, shame. “Le-dira’on olam,” for this eternal dira’on.

I looked dira’on, and it’s not so clear what it means. Usually we translate it as something like “eternal shame” in English, “eternal derision.” They like the word ‘derision’. You say ‘damnation’, maybe. So interestingly, in the Hebrew of the Mishna, dara is a worm, and it talks about dara eating the crops. So it may actually be some kind of relation to being consumed. So eternal consumption – it’s being consumed by worms.

Yoel: And the Talmud does speak a little bit about the suffering of the dead being the worm.

Nehemia: And that’s a phrase that comes from Job as well. The concept that you’re – whether literally or symbolically – feeling that worms eat you. I think it’s symbolically, because my view is based on Ecclesiastes – when you’re in this eternal derision, you actually don’t know what’s happening, you’re just dead. But people look and you say, “Oh, this is what happens to those who sin against the Creator of the Universe. Good thing we didn’t sin.”

And this is interesting, because we hear about people speaking about eternal hellfire, and how do we tie this to eternal hellfire? What are your thoughts on that?

Yoel: Eternal hellfire?

Nehemia: Yes. Is that anything that has any basis in the Tanakh?

Yoel: Well, actually, the end of this verse has the whole eternal hellfire…

Nehemia: But it’s here on earth!

Yoel: I don’t know about hellfire, I’m very careful with this term.

Nehemia: I want to use hellfire. I insist. But you don’t have to use it. And I’ll tell you why in a minute. Here there is eternal burning for the sinners and eternal consumption by worms, and whatever it is, it’s really bad. And really, it’s a final death. But their corpses that are a witness to that, a final death. And where does this take place, Yoel? Now we’ve got a cut to the geography of Jerusalem.

Yoel: So if we take Jerusalem, and we take ancient Jerusalem, there are several valleys that surround it. And if I remember correctly, isn’t there the Valley of Jehoshaphat or something?

Nehemia: There’s the Valley of Jehoshaphat, which is a part of Nahal Kidron, of the Kidron Valley on one side.

Yoel: And then we also have the Tyropoeon on the other side. But then outside of Jerusalem, we also have Ge Hinnom.

Nehemia: All right. So, guys, there’s a literal place in Jerusalem called the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, Ge ben Hinnom or the Son of Hinnom, and in Jewish sources… look, I grew up going to an ultra-Orthodox school and they told me in Jewish terms, “If you don’t repent, if you sin, you’re going to go to Gehennom. Ge Hinnom, the Valley of Hinnom.”

Yoel: My teachers never said that.

Nehemia: Really? Oh, I was told if I watched television, I was going to go to Ge Hinnom. It was only for eleven months; it wasn’t forever but it was very bad suffering for eleven months. In any event, Ge Hinnom is in the New Testament; actually, you have the word Gehenna in the Greek, which translates as ‘hell’. And in Jewish sources they talk about Ge Hinnom as this concept of hell. Meaning, most sources that say Ge Hinnom in Rabbinical sources will be translated as hell. And where did they get this image? I talk about this in my book, Shattering the Conspiracy of Silence, there’s a chapter called To Hell and Back.

But really, it’s a series of associations that they used to burn children to the Moloch in this valley. And so in Isaiah, earlier on, it takes on a symbolism of somebody who is going to suffer really badly. And so Ge Hinnom is a place which took on this symbolism as a place where you suffered. And here, Isaiah 66 is talking about the corpses of the sinners burning for eternity. When the people go out, they’ll see those corpses, and geographically that could be Ge Hinnom. I mean, it could be the Kidron Valley as well.

But geographically, we have this image of people going out and seeing the corpses of those burning forever in hell in a quite literal sense, meaning in Gehenna. So, this idea of eternal hellfire isn’t so far-fetched from a Tanakh perspective, except it’s a literal place on earth, in Jerusalem, and those people are dead. It’s eternal death; it’s a final death after their resurrection and final judgment. When you read Isaiah 66 and 26 and Daniel 12, and you put it all together, that’s the image I get. I don’t know your view on that. Do you want to say some final words about that?

Yoel: I’m very careful with prophecies and I don’t want to speculate too much about this, but it seems to me that they go to the Temple, they bow down, they do everything there, and then it’s as if immediately they go out somewhere near Jerusalem and they are seeing the corpses. I mean, I can’t really refute anything you said here, because it’s literally what the text is saying.

Nehemia: And certainly, those who identified Ge Hinnom as the concept of hell were almost certainly basing it on the interpretation I just shared. In other words, they were saying, “Oh, we know what Isaiah 66 means. They’re going to walk out of the Temple, go out of Jaffa Gate and they’ll be looking at Ge Hinnom, into this valley full of dead burning corpses.”

Yoel: I think that a lot of people have this spiritual understanding of Gehennom amongst Jews.

Nehemia: So this might be what predates that spiritual understanding is probably… And look, you could read this in a spiritual sense, and ask, “What, there’s literally going to be a bunch of dead bodies in the Hinnom Valley?” And I think yes, but somebody could come along and say, “Oh, there’s not literally going to be a dead body that they’re going to see looking down into some spiritual realm which coincides with that physical place.” There are different ways of reading it.

And people will say, “Tell me what the…” I’m a Karaite Jew, so they’ll say, “Nehemia, what does the Karaite Jewish doctrine say on such and such, on this afterlife?” And my answer a lot of times “Well, we’ll find out when it happens.”

Yoel: That’s usually what I say.

Nehemia: I mean, look, to me, I can read this and read it that way, and it’s pretty clear to me that there will be a resurrection of the dead and a final judgment and a final punishment and eternal life for some. That’s very clear to me. But look, I wouldn’t call this doctrine that if you don’t believe this you’re going to go to that place of hell, I wouldn’t say that – which actually the Mishna does say, but that’s a different discussion.

We have to wrap this up. Would you read us verses 21 through 23? Let’s end on a happy note. With the cantillation. And guys, again you can go to his website, hebrewinisrael.net. You can also find him on Facebook, and I’ll put a link on nehemiaswall.com. We’re going to end with the cantillation of this beautiful verse that’s talking about the new heavens and the new earth coming to bow down before Yehovah every new moon and every Shabbat. Bevakasha.

Yoel: “Ve-gam me-hem ekakh le-Kohanim la-Leviim amar Adonay. Ki kha-asher ha-shamayim ha-hadashim ve-ha-aretz ha-hadashah asher ani oseh omdim lefanai ne’um-Adonay ken ya’amod zarekhem ve-shihmkhem. Ve-hayah midei hodesh be-hodsho ve-midei Shabbat be-Shabato yavo khol-basar lehishtakhavot lefanai amar Adonay.”

Nehemia: Amen. Thank you.

You have been listening to Prophet Pearls with Nehemia Gordon and Yoel Halevy. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.