Torah Pearls #19 – Terumah (Exodus 25:1-27:19)

Torah Pearls Terumah, Exodus 25:1-27:19, candelabrum, Menorah, tabernacle, Temple, Torah Pearls, torah portion, Temple Institute, menorahThis episode of The Original Torah Pearls is on the Torah portion of Terumah (Exodus 25:1-27:19). The episode opens with a lively discussion on the difference between tithes and offerings.  There follows a brilliant discussion of the "Mercy Seat" of the Ark, and what that means to different cultures and faiths.  What could have been a boring discussion of the "furniture" in the tabernacle becomes a passionate discussion of the implements that were really contained within the Ark.

I look forward to reading your comments! Download Torah Pearls Terumah Transcript

Torah Pearls #19 - Terumah (Exodus 25:1-27:19)

You are listening to The Original Torah Pearls with Nehemia Gordon, Keith Johnson, and Jono Vandor. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Jono: It is time for Pearls from the Torah Portion with Keith Johnson in Charlotte, North Carolina, and Nehemia Gordon in Jerusalem, Israel. G'day, gentlemen. And good day to Jordan listening in Florida, Dan and Heidi in North Dakota, Yana in Indiana, Adam in Nevada, Jennifer in Michigan, Federico in Vancouver, Paul listening in Alabama. Keith and Nehemia?

Nehemia: Hey, Shalom, great to be on the program. I want to do a shout-out to Lelani and Elaina on Facebook, and Ariela Bat Yochanan, who wrote on Facebook, “please keep up Torah pills.” P-I-L-L-S. So, we should keep on with Torah pills. Thank You, Ariela.

Jono: Hey. It's a healthy pill. Keith?

Keith: Yeah, I want to give a shout out to all the people that obviously are listening. I hear that we had quite a record listening audience for our portions. But I want to say, I give a shout out to Victoria and Marlon and also Karen in Minneapolis, who actually asked me a question. This is a really big deal, Karen's been listening and asking questions. So I want to shout-out all those folks and thanks for having us again.

Jono: Brilliant. And wherever you may be around the world, thank you for your company. Today, we are in Terumah, Exodus 25, verse 1, to 27 verse 19. And it begins like this, “Then,”

Keith: Wait.

Jono: Whoop. Hang on hang on.

Keith: This is one of these

Nehemia: What?

Keith: No, before we get started. No, I'm going to tell you something. So everyone should know we've been preparing, we have these great sections, and this is one of these sections where we've been scratching our heads saying, oh, boy, how is this going to work? How long will we have? And this morning, early in the morning, I had this great thought. I want to bring it to you Jono, and to you Nehemia. Since we have a little bit of concern, and the audience doesn't know this that you know, we're wondering, are we going to be able to go long? Is it going to be short? I thought, you know, how we could start this session out?

Jono: What do you reckon?

Keith: Let's have our eyes opened at the beginning.

Jono: Ah! Brilliant.

Keith: Let's have Nehemia…

Nehemia: Oh, come on!

Keith: Let's have Nehemia start us out to see if there are any pearls in this Torah portion. So, let's have Nehemia pray for us that our eyes would be opened to see the wonderful things, even in this section of the Torah, that many people would think well, let's rush through. No, no, there are pearls here. So Nehemia, would you open us up in prayer?

Jono: There are pills there. But let me just add to that, if I may, because I think that's a wonderful idea, Keith. I thank you for bringing that up because there are, in this particular Torah portion, there's a lot of measurements, there's a lot of materials, and it's not that it's boring, it's interesting. But it's --

Nehemia: No, it's boring.

Keith: No, Nehemia calls it, so -- no, no, it's not boring.

Jono: It's relevant, but it doesn't make for great radio, let's put it that way, OK?

Keith: What are you talking about? There is…

Jono: No, no, wait. Now, what I'm saying is, but what I want to highlight is, it has been my experience, and I don't know about you, Keith, but when it comes to things like measurements and materials, and particularly, coming from the tradition that I come from, perhaps you've had similar experiences, Keith. This is a Torah portion that really opens for people for what I call, selective attention, when they might, you know, it leaves doors open for people to go, well, you know, this was made of wood and this was made of gold and what that really means is…and so I would just encourage people, have a look at the text and what it says. Maybe it just means that that was made of wood and that was made of gold. Let's not rush to conclusions, let's not necessarily believe what everybody says. Let's go back to the text and just check it out before we run with things like this. Nehemia, would you please give us the prayer from Psalm 119 verse 18?

Nehemia: Avinu shebashamayim, Yehovah Eloheinu, gal eneinu ve-nabi-tah niphlaot mi-Torahteha. Hineh dvar-cha.” Our Father in Heaven, Yehovah our Elohim, uncover our eyes that we may see the hidden, wonderful things of your Torah, that we may see the pearls of your word. Amen.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: Amen.

Jono: Thank you.

Keith: Now, I'm going to be the Methodist just for a second before we get started.

Jono: Go on.

Keith: If all we had, the only part of the Torah we had, was the first word from Exodus 25 verse 1, the first word, if that's all we had, it would be enough.

Nehemia: What?

Keith: I'm just telling you if I read in my Methodist Bible here and all I have is, Exodus chapter 25 verse 1. That's all I have. Now, Nehemia, I want to know how your section starts out in Exodus 25, verse 1. Tell me how it starts.

Nehemia: “Vayidaber Yehovah el Moshe lemor,” and Yehovah spoke to Moses, saying.

Keith: Stop. Okay. If all we had was the first word in Hebrew and all I had was the first word in my Bible and now Jono, what's the first word in your Bible?

Jono: In Bereshit 25 verse 1?

Keith: Bereshit? What are you talking about?

Jono: Sorry, did you say Genesis? Where are we now?

Keith: I'm talking about the Torah portion.

Nehemia: We're in Exodus.

Jono: We're in Exodus. Thank you.

Keith: What is? Okay, ladies and gentlemen, here is my point, okay?

Jono: No, no, no.

Nehemia: Jono has selective attention.

Jono: Did you hear the silence? Did you hear the silence on the other side?

Keith: The selective attention, Jono is back in Bereshit, ladies and gentlemen.

Jono: I don't know why, but I thought you said Bereshit, and I'm like…

Keith: No, no, no. If all we have is the first verse. Here is what I want to talk about, and I want everybody to open their Bibles that's listening to us.

Jono: Here we go, okay.

Keith: Nehemia has Hebrew --

Jono: Hang on, wait. Exodus chapter 25 verse 1, you want the first word?

Keith: Just give me what the first word says.

Jono: The first word says, “Then.”

Keith: Okay, Nehemia, the first word says?

Nehemia: "And he spoke", “Vayidaber.”

Keith: And in my first one, the first one is “the” T-H-E, Okay? Now, if I just had the first word and he says “vayidaber,” and Jono’s says “then,” and mine says “the,” it makes me want to go to the second word. Now, just bear with me for a second, guys, and then we're going to get started. Go to the second word in your version, Jono.

Jono: So, mine is, the second word is “the.” I've got “then” and “the.”

Keith: Okay, and mine says, "the", and the second word is "L-O-R-D". And Nehemia, what is the second word in your Hebrew Bible?

Nehemia: Yehovah.

Keith: Ah! If that's all we had for this Torah portion, in my Methodist Bible, “the LORD,” in Nehemia's Bible “vayidaber Yehovah,” he spoke. Who did? Yehovah. If that's all we had, we could take this entire hour. Why? Because it’s amazing that the Creator of the universe-

Nehemia: And you intend to do so.

Keith: And I intend to do so. Because my point is, that what's so amazing is, and here's where I was humbled as I thought about this. We're talking about how we're going to do it and all this stuff, but think about this, it's recorded in this black-and-white book, that I have here, that the Creator of universe spoke to Moses.

What's amazing is Moses then records it for you and me to read it. So obviously, this, of all the things that he could talk about, what we're getting ready to talk about, must be pretty important. So this is the approach that I'm taking for this Torah portion, because I feel like there's something in this, that's what I call macro, the big picture, and micro, some of the small things.

So, I know maybe we won't go through every measurement and all that, but, Jono, I know you're prepared for this because you're one of the best, well, you're the best interviewer in radio I've ever listened to, whether I've been a part of or not. And you normally like to go each particular verse and all this sort of thing, but I want us to ask the macro question, and then we'll come up with some of the micro issues, okay? So, there's a macro question - why did Yehovah speak to Moses? And I'll go to Nehemia and I'll ask him the question, what is he about to speak to him about, Nehemia?

Nehemia: First, they're taking up the offering to actually construct the tabernacle.

Keith: And that's what I want to talk about in this section.

Nehemia: Oh, the offerings!

Keith: This is what I want to talk about. If don't talk about nothing else. And you know what? Listen, to me, this is really powerful. Listen, so here's what happens. You guys know this. I'm going to be controversial, that, pretty much all of Tanakh is not applicable these days. But if my Methodist brothers and sisters got to this section and it says, “They talked about the offering,” that would be applicable.

Jono: We've got to emphasize that one right there, right?

Keith: But what’s exciting -

Nehemia: Here is some selective reading.

Keith: There is some selective reading here going on. Go ahead, Jono. Go right ahead.

Jono: So, it says, “Then Yehovah spoke to Moses, saying, 'Speak to the children of Israel, that they may bring Me an offering. From everyone who gives it willingly with his heart you shall take My offering.'” And so obviously we're not talking about the tithe here, right? We're talking about what is commonly referred to as a free will offering. What's the difference?

Nehemia: This particular offering is a one-time thing, but there is a general category of free will offering that is referred to here in verse 2. The idea is that you decide how much to give, whereas, with the tithe, you've actually been commanded to give 10%. Here, it could be one penny or it could be everything you have. And actually, the phrase in Hebrew is “yidavenu libo,” which means his "heart will offer", so it has to be something that comes from your heart.

Jono: So, Keith, in the tradition that you and I, I suppose, we come from, there's a lot of confusion, isn't there, between the tithe and a free will offering. There's a lot of confusion on those sorts of things. What goes through your mind when we read these two verses?

Keith: I'm glad that Nehemia just brought that little Torah Pearl. Nehemia, can you say that phrase again?

Nehemia: So, it's “yidavenu libo,” which means, his heart will offer freely. It's really interesting, if I can go a little bit off of the Torah portion and bring a pearl from the book of Hosea, because there we have a really interesting passage where Hosea actually teaches the people a prayer, and he's living at a time when they can't bring sacrifices. And he teaches them how to pray and ask God to accept the prayer in place of the sacrifices as a payment of the bulls, he says up in verse 3.

But then in verse 5 after the prayer, Yehovah speaks and he says, “I will heal their rebelliousness and I will love nedevah,” which is from the same exact root, which literally you could translate as a free will offering, meaning this isn't Yehovah who is bound or obligated to accept their repentance because we went through all the hoops and we brought all the sacrifices and we repented. He's saying, look, you may not even deserve this but because you come to me in genuine prayer and repentance, I'm going to accept that free will offering and accept that freely.

Keith: Well, can I-

Jono: Sorry Keith, I'll come back to you in just a second. I just want to read that because that's such a great example with what we're talking about. It’s Hosea chapter 14, “O Israel, return to Yehovah your Elohim, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity; take words with you, and return to Yehovah. Say to Him, ‘Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will offer the sacrifices of our lips.’” Hang on, I've got an asterisk there in my Bible. “But we will offer the sacrifices of our lips.” Hang on, I've got to find the asterisk.

Nehemia: So, it literally says, “Let us pay for the bulls with our lips,” is what it literally says.

Jono: That's you know what? It tells me that down in the small print. How about that? It's actually bulls, that's nice. So that's a perfect example, right, Keith?

Keith: Yeah, well, the thing that hits me with this is that it says, “you are to receive the offering” versus, “you are to take up the offering.”

Jono: Ah.

Keith: Now, when I saw that in my little passage, and then according to what Nehemia just read, again, this is such a beautiful thing. We find out later as we get to the portion later about that there was so much that Moses said, hey, listen, "hey, you guys, enough is enough. We can't take any more." And here you have this group of people, and Yehovah is saying, "receive this offering knowing that the people's hearts have been moved to give." Again, the thing that excites me, and what kind of bothers me, I don't mind saying this. I can say this because I come from this tradition, you know, there's so much manipulation, there's so much beating over the head, there's so much you got to give and here's how you're going to give.

I get stuff in the mail, you guys, you just wouldn't believe. I won't bore us right now with this kind of stuff that I've seen both on television or that I get in the mail. And there's so much of this idea that somehow we're going to force God's hand by doing this, this, this, and so what we do as the leaders, we're going to force your hand. And instead, what I love about this first discussion of giving is that you're to receive the offering. The offering is coming; be in position to receive it. And here's what the offering is going to be and it's going to be all of these things. So, I guess I would ask the question to you two, where did they get all of this stuff? And I think we know the answer.

Jono: Well, I think they, didn't they plunder Egypt before they left?

Nehemia: Yeah. That's right.

Jono: Here it is.

Keith: So why are you laughing, Nehemia? I'm just asking a question.

Nehemia: Because Yehovah lets them plunder Egypt and then he says, okay, you got this freely, you know, whatever your heart moves you to, give it to God.

Keith: Now, and why do I want to bring that up? Because here, look, think of Maestro now. I love to call Yehovah maestro sometimes. These people are thinking about getting out of bondage. He's thinking about setting up the tabernacle; macro. He's setting up the tabernacle, he’s like, "Look, you guys, you slaves that are coming from Egypt, you're not going to have all this stuff. Do me a favor, before you leave, go tell the Egyptians, I'm not going to tell you why, just go ahead and get everything from them; ask them for everything. And then, by the way, when you get to where I'm going to call you, I'm going to ask you for some of that. And why am I going to ask you for some of that? Because I'm going to give you a greater gift than any gold, any silver, any wood, any stone…"

And this is why I get excited, and excuse my excitement. I'm going to have you bring this for me because I'm going to meet with you, and I'm going to meet you in a place that's…I'm an interior designer, I've got a plan for how I want to meet with you, what it's going to look like, what it's going to smell like, how it's going to feel. And you guys, I get excited because, think of how creative Yehovah is. He's a strategic planner. He says, look, you don't have it? Get it from the Egyptians. I'm going to need it, I'm going to set it up and then I'm going to come meet with you and I want to meet you in this kind of room, Okay? Let's move on.

Jono: There it is, verse 3, it says, “And this is the offering…”

Keith: Yes.

Jono: “…which you shall take from them: gold, silver, and bronze; blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats’ hair,” Now, get ready, I've got a question here, and this is a question a lot of people have asked in the past when it comes to this particular passage, “goats’ hair, ram skins dyed red, badger skins,” is what I've got. Keith, what have you gotten in the Nearly Inspired Version?

Keith: It says, “dyed red and hides of sea cows.”

Jono: “Hides of sea cows”? You've got sea cows? I think the JPS says “seal skins.” And other translations say “fine leather,” other ones say “goat skins,” some of them say, now this is an interesting one - skins of vermilion. A color. Now Nehemia, what have you got in the Hebrew?

Nehemia: So, the word is “tachash,” and “tachash” is a very mysterious word. We don't know exactly what it is. It's obviously the skin of some type of an animal, and there's all kinds of theories and explanations of what it is. I've heard it suggested it’s a porpoise. There's one Israeli scholar who suggested that it was a unicorn.

Jono: Nice. So,

Nehemia: Yeah?

Jono: There is a -

Nehemia: And the bottom line is we don't know what it is, but presumably, according to some scholars, and this makes the most sense, is it's actually a type of goat, which makes the most sense.

Jono: Because the-

Nehemia: Because I don't think they were going to use badger. Now, where would they have these sea animals in the desert? It doesn't even make sense. Jono: That's right.

Keith: What do you mean? Are you trying to tell me my version is not right? It says sea cows.

Jono: Well, I mean, the thing is, the other concern, of course, is a sea cow, a seal, we're talking about an unclean animal,

Nehemia: Well…

Jono: And it seems strange that you would be using the skin of an unclean animal, which would make you unclean, to make the tabernacle in which you should be clean. And it just gets kind of awkward, right?

Nehemia: So, I'm going to challenge you on that one.

Jono: Go on.

Nehemia: Which is because there is a type of dye that we know for a fact was used in the tabernacle.

Jono: Yeah. Which comes from the snail.

Nehemia: Right, crimson snail. It’s Exodus 25 verse 4.

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: Okay, so it's a few more verses. So read that in yours.

Jono: “Blue, purple, and scarlet thread, fine linen, and goats’ hair;”

Nehemia: Okay, so the word that they translated as “scarlet thread,” in Hebrew, it literally says “crimson worm,” that's what it literally says, “tolat shani.” And the fact that it's called “crimson worm” in Hebrew is a good indication that it probably was made from a worm, possibly from maybe the blood of the worm or something like that. And what that tells me is that you're not allowed to eat the worm, and obviously, that's in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. But if you take a part of that animal, then put it through a chemical process and turn it into a dye, evidently, you're allowed to use it. It doesn't make unclean because like you said, it doesn't make sense.

Jono: So, it's a byproduct.

Nehemia: That God would command you to --

Jono: That's right, so it's a byproduct to that particular animal.

Nehemia: It’s a byproduct. And because it’s been processed so extensively, through this whole chemical process, and then used as a dye and then washed out, so it no longer conveys the ritual impurity that it would have as the actual worm.

Jono: Sure. So we could extend that example perhaps to oysters and pearls, a pearl from an oyster. Does a pearl make you unclean? It's an interesting question. But the commandment, correct me if I'm wrong, is, “if you touch their carcass, you are unclean.”

Nehemia: Right.

Jono: And when you're handling the skin of an animal, the actual hide of an animal, is that not a little bit more specific than perhaps manufacturing a byproduct from the snail or the worm?

Nehemia: Well, why don't we save that discussion for when we get to Leviticus 11?

Jono: We’ll be there eventually. But now, just one question. Is there a possibility, because you and I, we floated this, we had this discussion recently, and I'm interested in your opinion, can it be in reference to a color, a fiery color?

Nehemia: Well, it definitely is a color, but obviously the color was made from worm or it wouldn't have been called crimson worm.

Jono: No, no, no, I'm sorry, badger skins, the word --

Nehemia: Oh, badger skins. Oh.

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: It's possible.

Jono: There's a possibility?

Nehemia: It's possible, but contextually it sounds like a material that was then dyed red or the red variation of that skin.

Jono: There it is. Okay.

Nehemia: For that material, whatever the material.

Jono: “And acacia wood; oil for the light,” and so it goes on and we have, “the anointing oil, for sweet incense,” and eventually, we come to, now, can I continue on to the next passage here?

Keith: No.

Jono: Keith?

Nehemia: Can we jump to verse 9?

Keith: No, no this is for all my brothers and sisters that are listening here. And please, I'm sorry, I said that a little harsh. Let me say this, I would like to take just a moment, I'd like to take a moment just to focus on two things here. One of them is this, Nehemia, what about this idea of-

Nehemia: Are you British all of a sudden?

Keith: No, I'm just kidding.

Nehemia: Or do you think Jono’s British? He’s actually Australian.

Keith: No, no, no. I am asking the question. Listen, it says here, spices for the anointing oil. Anointing what? What is that about? Let's talk about that just for a second. I mean, look at it again. Is the Creator of the universe not setting this up and thinking future? In other words, here was this offering that you're to receive based on what he asked the people to get, future. Here he's saying, let's get these spices for the anointing oil. That made me stop. What's this anointing oil for?

Nehemia: For anointing.

Keith: Anointing what?

Nehemia: So specifically, we're told later that they anointed the vessel of the tabernacle and they also anointed the priests.

Keith: Oh, boy. So what is the word there it uses for the anointing oil in Hebrew, Nehemia?

Nehemia: “Mischa,” which you're probably thinking, correctly, is from the same…

Keith: Oh, no.

Nehemia: What?

Keith: Go ahead.

Nehemia: It’s is from the same root as “Meshiach,” which means anointed one, a person who is anointed is a Meshiach, and they're anointed with the “mischa,” the anointing oil.

Keith: Exactly. So here, if I wanted to, if I was reading this-

Nehemia: A Meshiach is a Messiah for those who don't know.

Keith: And see, that's the point. Look, I wanted to slow down for a second. So for people who are, you know, they're going through this, and it says, “and for the anointing oil.” Well, for me, only in the last eight or nine years, has that word meant something different to me. Before, when I would read, Jono, in this and I would read my Bible, my heritage, I'd read my Bible. And I'd quickly go over anointing oil and then I later found out that there's a connection between the anointing oil and the ones who are anointed. Who by the way, in my Bible, it doesn't give that same sense that this is the Meshiach, or HaMeshiach, or the word that we get the idea of Messiah, because in my Bible, it sort of hides that word, it only comes out a couple of times in my Tanakh and a couple times in my New Testament if I were to read it. But to find out that there's actually this word, this idea, of being anointed, is the very thing that we're talking about here. You've been anointed by this oil, it's the preparation for setting aside and saying, okay, you are my Meshiach and we find that many other times with people. So, I just wanted to say, I know that we are, you know, kind of not allowed to talk about here.

Jono: No. Brilliant.

Keith: But this is an important little thing that we would read if we were reading in the version that Nehemia’s reading. And then, of course, me being a Methodist, realizing now when I read my Methodist Bible, that there are some things that we may not make connections with, and that just happens to be one. And of course, the reason we can't move on to the next section is because of verse number 8. And this is the macro for me, guys. It says, “Then have them make a sanctuary for them.” Is that what it says?

Jono: I don't have that. I've got, “And let them make Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them.”

Keith: Wait. Surely it says, “Then have them make a sanctuary for my denomination.” No, or it…

Nehemia: That only in the Methodist Bible.

Keith: No. If I read it from my perspective, this is my thought, but then if I slow down, it says, “Then have them make a sanctuary for Me”. And then here comes the statement guys, “and I will dwell among them.”

Jono: Amen.

Nehemia: Come on! Whoo!

Keith: So, this is why we can't jump to the next section. So, you're telling me that the Creator of the universe, who created “Berashit bara Elohim,” he created the heavens and the earth. He did all of this stuff, he made light come, he separated the waters; he did all this stuff. He brings these people, excuse my excitement, all the way out of Egypt, brings them to the mountain, brings Moses up and says, now, I'm going to speak to you. And then Moses is saying, what do you want to talk to me about? He says, listen, I want you to make a place for me to dwell. What do you mean? You're the fire, you're the mountain, you're the smoke. Uh-uh, I'm going to make a place where I'm going to come and dwell among them. Wow! Then he tells him, but you better do it exactly how I say it. So what do we see when we start reading this? Exact, specific instructions.

Jono: Oh, we see precision, yeah, precision.

Keith: Oh, my goodness. I mean, with precision. Okay, so now you guys, we can move on. But I think that's a pretty powerful thing.

Jono: Amen. Nehemia, verse 9, “According to all that I show you.”

Nehemia: This is a theme that repeats itself throughout this section. Repeatedly he talks about how he's showing these vessels. He must have seen some kind of diagrams or models of the tabernacle, like, for example, in verse 40, it says, "And see and do according to the pattern that you are shown on the mountain". So, when Moses went to Mount Sinai for forty days and forty nights, he received the Tablets of Stone, and in addition, he was shown things. He was shown a pattern of the tabernacle, and possibly he was shown, some people read this and say, okay, he was shown a heavenly tabernacle, that there's a tabernacle in heaven, parallel to the one on earth, and he was making a model of it and the real one is up there in heaven. Either way, he was shown something up there on the mountain. I think that's really interesting, for me, as a Karaite Jew, that I was always taught Moses went up for forty days and forty nights on Mount Sinai and what took so long? It could’ve taken three seconds to give him the Tablets of Stone. What took so long is that he was learning, by heart, the Oral law, that's what I was told. That's why it took forty days and forty nights. And my question always was, why did he have to go a second time? And their answer was, well he forgot it when he broke the Tablets of Stone, which is, I suppose, very convenient. But I think it's interesting that the things he did receive on the mountain we are told specifically about. And I think if he had received an Oral Law up on Mount Sinai, God would have said, "Slaughter the animals as I commanded you up on the mountain," and it never says that. All these things that are supposed to be in the Oral Law, we don't have any allusion to them, any reference to them, any hint of them anywhere in the Hebrew Bible and Tanakh. And you know, here would be the place to mention it, here would be the place, or he could say, "As I showed you up on the mountain and conveyed you orally the commandments of the entire tracktate, concerning the tabernacle," which he never does. What this tells me is that if God wanted to, say, give an Oral Law up on the mountain, here's how he would have done it.

Keith: Let me say this. I think what's really cool to me, when I read this, in light of what Nehemia just mentioned, is just this idea. I mean I kind of put it in practical terms, maybe some people here that are listening have actually built homes where they've gone in and met with, you know, you go into the interior designer and you go into the builder and you have the architect, and they sit down and they say, okay, now, here's what I want you to do. Can you imagine? You go and you tell him now, here's what I want you to do and you don't show them anything and they don't show you anything.

So, I mean, I think it's funny - not funny, I think it's kind of amazing and creative that Yehovah would have this, you know, sort of a multi 3D dimensional possible picture. Now, here's what it's going to look like, I'm going to give you a picture what it's going to look like so you can remember, so as you're going about this business, this is what it looks like, and he does it exactly according to that pattern. I mean the Parade of Homes you know, and these are concepts you guys might not know about, in Australia, or Nehemia, over there in Israel, but over in the United States, there's this whole issue of, we're going to show you what something's going to look like and that's what you're going to choose. So, they do show you, the picture, the pattern of it. And so, can you imagine Moses being, I mean, almost in awe, like, here's what it’s going to look like. I mean I could see him, like, oh, I can't wait! You know, and maybe he shares that with the people. Here's what it's going to look like, and they can't wait to see this built, because this is the place where he's going to come and dwell amongst them. I think that's amazing.

Jono: Amen. So he doesn't just have the specific instruction, he's been shown this stuff before.

Keith: He has been shown it, yes.

Nehemia: Right. There are some things you can't really convey verbally.

Keith: There it is.

Nehemia: There are things you need to see.

Jono: Sure.

Nehemia: So, what he’s being told verbally are essentially maybe some of the specific details, but the general image of it is something that, you know, if you just had to take these words and make a tabernacle out of it, you can have lots of different ways. And God wanted it made a very specific way, so he showed him a diagram on the mountain, and then, later on, we will see he hires people to then actually implement that.

Keith: And Nehemia, why did he want it done a specific way?

Nehemia: Because he said so. What's your answer?

Keith: No, no, because -

Nehemia: So, my answer is “kacha”…

Keith: That’s what I was looking for.

Nehemia: …which is a Hebrew word for “just because.”

Keith: Yeah, but isn't it amazing?

Nehemia: Kacha - just because.

Keith: And so, he says just because.

Nehemia: I don't think we need to question that.

Keith: No, I'm asking you the question so you'd give me the nice little Hebrew answer: Kacha.

Nehemia: Yeah. Kacha

Keith: But what's so powerful about it is the statement. The statement is, and when you do this, I'm going to come and meet with you. So, listen, however he wants it, that's the way I'm going to do it because I want to meet with him. Amen.

Jono: That's what it says. So once again, that's Exodus 25 verse 40, “And see to it that you make them according to the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain,” is what I've got there. Now here's another one. Now, boy, oh boy! The Ark of the testimony. Now I'm confused. I saw a movie, what was it? I mean, every time I hear it referred to as “the Ark of the Covenant,” right? I mean I've got here in verse 10, “And they shall make the Ark of acacia wood,” and it's going to have this, it's going to have that. But it says, in verse 16, “And you shall put into the Ark of the Testimony, which I will give you.” And this is interesting because I looked this up; the word is not "Brit". What is “testimony,” Nehemia?

Nehemia: The word is “edut,” “Aron Ha'Edut,” and so we have two different “Aron ha'edut”.

Jono: Now, is it fair to say that the first time that we came across this word was in Exodus 16; this is the manna, right? They put the manna in as a testimony.

Nehemia: The first time “edut,” is Exodus 16 verse 34. Exactly.

Jono: Okay. This is the next time. So tell us about it.

Nehemia: Actually what it says in Exodus 16:34 is, “as Yehovah commanded Moses, Aaron, the brother of Moses, he placed it,” that is the vessel containing the manna, the man, “before the testimony to be kept." Now, that's very interesting because he hasn't told us about the testimony yet. This testimony, that's another name for the Ark, and you can see that in verse 16, it says, “and you will place in the Ark the testimony, which I will give you.” And then after that, the word testimony and ark are sometimes used interchangeably. It'll sometimes talk only about the testimony, and not even mention that it's the Ark. By context, you understand it's speaking about the Ark.

An example of that is Exodus 27 verse 21. There it just says, “by the testimony,” referring to the Ark. And that's a very common thing in language, where you have a phrase like that and it'll truncate it, it'll give you this truncated form of the word and not use the whole phrase. The full phrase is “Ark of the Testimony,” and sometimes it'll just say "the testimony". I just looked it up, out of curiosity. So we have 12 times in the Bible, the phrase, “Ark of the Testimony,” and the phrase “Ark of the Covenant,” we only have 7 times.

Jono: Interesting.

Nehemia: Which shows you that that's a much more common phrase. Interestingly, all of those 7 times are in the book of Joshua.

Jono: Oh, wow. Okay. That's an idea.

Keith: So, can we read contextually one more time then? So, and maybe this might be a little confusing because verse 15 says, “The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed.” Then verse 16 says, “Then put in the Ark of the Testimony, which I will give you.”

Nehemia: Oh, that’s not what it says in Hebrew. What does yours say, Jono?

Keith: No, I'm telling you -

Jono: No, that's what I've got. I've got, “And you shall put into the Ark of the Testimony which I will give you.” Put what?

Keith: That's what I wanted to take a moment. So, I want to take a moment to…

Nehemia: What it says in Hebrew is “you shall place in the Ark, the testimony

that I will give you.”

Jono: Ah.

Nehemia: It's quite different, isn't it?

Jono: “And you shall put into the Ark…”

Nehemia: And the testimony refers to the Tablets.

Jono: “…the testimony, which I will give you,” and that's the tablets.

Nehemia: The Ten Commandments. Why is it called the testimony? Because God appeared before all of Israel, every man, woman, and child and testified these…

Keith: Wait, what do you mean?

Nehemia: …these ten things, that's why it's called testimony.

Keith: Now, then, “put in the Ark, the testimony.” Okay.

Jono: Okay.

Keith: So, you put in the Ark, the testimony. And Nehemia, I want to slow down again here, and Jono, I want to slow down. So, if we're reading this, and you were to ask, if my grandchild, who I don't have yet, said to me, okay, so what's the testimony? What's the connection for it between the testimony and how, when I grew up, we'd say, okay, it's testimony time, somebody stand up and give a testimony.

Jono: Yeah?

Keith: So, here's my question: What's the connection in English with this idea of, someone stand up and give a testimony, and the testimony being put into the Ark?

Nehemia: Testify, brother! Because this is God's testimony that he testified at Mount Sinai…

Keith: That’s it. Exactly.

Nehemia: …for all the Israelites, what we call the Ten Commandments, or in Hebrew, the Ten Things, the Ten Matters, the Ten Words, “Aseret Hadvarim.” And that's the testimony. It's not our testimony, it's His testimony.

Keith: Amen, so that's…

Nehemia: And here's what's interesting. I looked in the JPS translation, Jewish Publication Society, in verse 16, and it has, “And deposit in the Ark the tablets of the Pact which I will give you.” So, they kind of paraphrase. It literally says, “and place,” or give, “in the Ark the testimony which I will give you.” So they said, well, people won't know what testimony is, so let's replace that with “tablets of the pact.”

Jono: Oh, wow. Okay.

Keith: What I think -

Nehemia: But your translations don't even make sense.

Keith: Well, it does –

Nehemia: I mean, it’s not what it says in Hebrew.

Keith: Well no, if we say, and let me slow it down and read it this way with the right pause and the comma.

Nehemia: Actually, I'm looking in the NIV, and it says, “Then put in the Ark the testimony, which I will give you.” That's correct.

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: So, you just have to pause.

Jono: You have to emphasize it correctly so that it makes sense.

Nehemia: Oh, okay.

Keith: That's why I wanted to show you the example of the difference between having a comma there and not having a comma there. "Then put in the Ark the testimony, comma, which I will give you.”

Jon: So, it goes on in verse 17, “You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two and a half cubits it shall be,” you're laughing already, “it shall be.”

Nehemia: I’m laughing because of this mercy seat. In fact, I remember the first time when I took Keith around the Old City of Jerusalem, and he kept asking about the mercy seat. And I'm like, there's no such thing as the mercy seat, and he's like, are you kidding me? There is in my Bible, I’ll show you.

Keith: That was a private conversation.

Nehemia: He showed me, and I said, in Hebrew, it doesn’t say mercy seat. The word “mercy” isn't there, the word “seat” isn't there. The word is “kaporet,” which is extremely significant because it's from the word, atonement. And “kaporet” is the atonement; I mean really you could translate it as atonement. So the Ark cover -

Jono: So, hang on hang on, Nehemia. I got to ask you. Now you just said, the word mercy isn't there and the word seat isn’t there.

Nehemia: Correct.

Jono: Wow.

Nehemia: Can I get an Amen?

Jono: That's blowing my mind. Okay. What I’m going to-

Keith: Just a minute, Jono.

Jono: Yeah?

Keith: Wait a minute.

Jono: Okay. So, I'm looking at the JPS at the moment now, because I'm shocked by what you just said, and I'll tell you what it says, “And thou shalt make an ark-cover of pure gold.”

Keith: Okay.

Jono: Well, that’s an entirely different saying.

Keith: So where does it say, "mercy seat"? I don't know where it says mercy seat.

Nehemia: Not in my Bible. Well, in your English, it says mercy seat, but in the Hebrew, there's no such thing as a mercy seat.

Keith: It says, “Make an atonement cover of pure gold,” is what my NIV says.

Nehemia: Come on. Alright, that's closer.

Keith: I called the committee and told them what you said and they…

Jono: Are you serious? Is that what the NIV says?

Keith: It does say that now.

Jono: But Keith, I've got my New King James, I'm reading it; it says, “You shall make a mercy seat,” it doesn't even have an asterisk there.

Keith: Okay, so there it is. But I think it's important to know, because we're going to get to this in a little bit and we're going to take some time hopefully to talk about it, but this whole issue of the Ark. So Nehemia, again, when you see those words, what does it make you think about, the first phrase in verse 17? When you see those words, it says to make a what?

Nehemia: The word “kaporet”?

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: “Kaporet” is from the word atonement.

Keith: Okay.

Nehemia: Obviously, the function of this object that's covering the Ark has something to do with atonement, from the command.

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: From the meaning of the words, that is. And then later, we see that in Leviticus.

Keith: Absolutely, which we will get to.

Nehemia: Blood was sprinkled on it on the day of atonement.

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: So that was essentially the function of it.

Keith: Now, Jono -

Nehemia: I got to ask, and I honestly don’t know the answer. What is the theological significance of calling it "mercy seat"? Because there's definitely some theology going on there. Whoever called it mercy seat had some kind of agenda.

Jono: Yeah, had an agenda, so…

Nehemia: Because like I said, it doesn't say mercy and it doesn't say seat.

Jono: It blows my mind.

Nehemia: Maybe they wanted to cover up that there was atonement in the Temple, I don't know.

Jono: It blows my mind that there is no, as I mentioned Keith, there's no asterisk here, but I go down to the study notes and lo and behold, because they have to tell you somewhere, don't they? It says 25:17 in the study notes, “The mercy seat is a familiar English translation of a Hebrew noun derived from the verb meaning “atone for…”

Nehemia: Come on!

Jono: …or “to cover over,” or “to make propitiation.” We’re familiar with that word, right?

Keith: Yes. Amen.

Jono: “The noun means ‘a place of propitiation’. The mercy seat was the lid for the Ark as well as the base on which the cherubim were to be placed.” Now, I want to talk about the cherubim, but Keith, what do you make of that?

Nehemia: Wait.

Keith: I want to say --

Nehemia: So, one quick comment here, is that, what was I going to say?

Keith: Let me tell you why he did that, Jono let me tell you why he did that.

Jono: Yeah?

Keith: You said, Keith, what do you have, and he had to interrupt me, didn’t you?

Nehemia: Oh, no.

Jono: Well, no, no. I'm looking at it now, there's still some to this note and it says, it goes on to say --

Nehemia: Oh, so the moral of the story here is, and you found it in the span of… the moral of the story is keep reading.

Jono: OK, so I'm going to keep reading. Are you ready? It says in this study note, “In the old covenant,” Keith, “the mercy seat was a place of propitiation for sin,” hang on, and it goes on to say, “resulting in peace with God. For ancient Israelites,” the ancient Israelites, “the mercy seat had a meaning similar,” Keith, I've got to read this to you, are you listening to me?

Keith: Yes.

Jono: It says, “For ancient Israelites,” I'm going to let you deal with this, my friend “the Israelites, the mercy seat had a meaning similar to that of the cross for Christians.” What do we do with that information?

Nehemia: Keep me out of this.

Keith: So, here's what I'm doing, here's what I'm doing as I'm reading this, and this is what kind of excites me about the whole Pearls from the Torah, the Torah Pearls. The way that we're doing this is that we're going to read this; we're going to read this the way that the ancient Israelites would have understood it. So, let's all agree with something right now. Before we ever got to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Acts 11 to Romans, First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, there was this. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to approach this.

Now, I'm going to tell you one thing I remember, early in my studies with Nehemia, as he mentioned, we were walking around the Old City of Jerusalem, I’m looking for the mercy seat and he says it’s not there, and I'm like, what do you mean it's not there? The idea being, I was backing into the Torah. I was backing into the Torah, and the primary was my theological situation that I had come from. Now, what we're doing in the Torah Pearls right now, is we're not backing into the Torah; we're walking through the front door of Torah. So what I'm going to try to do if it's okay, I'll let you guys deal with those issues of what it might be in the New Testament, I want to deal with what it is here. Because the ancient Israelites who went out once every seven years and heard this read, they didn't know anything about what you just got me talking about.

Jono: That’s right. Yeah.

Keith: What their knowing is, okay, this Creator of the universe who made the beginning and did all of these things, now wants to dwell with us, and now he's going to set up this place where he's going to dwell with us. And the meaning alone is more than any of us can bear. I mean, there's more meaning in this for my brother Nehemia who's over in Israel, for you, Jono, in Australia and me, where I'm at, before I ever get to the theological gymnastics that we'd have to do to back into this. So I'm not going to do that. It's a great softball, I could hit it out of the park, but I'm not going to do that. I want to let this be what it is because what it is, is pretty darn powerful.

Jono: Brilliant.

Keith: And he is saying here, Yom Kippur, isn't this one of the great appointments of God? Isn't this a foreshadowing, Nehemia, of what it is that he's going to call all of Israel to do, and those that come into an understanding of who he is according to his Mo’adim, the places that you'd meet? He's saying here, here's the fort, here it is. There's an atonement, and in my Bible, it says an atonement cover. What do you think of when you think of atonement, not being a Methodist, being an ancient Israelite? So Nehemia, when you hear atonement, what do you think of?

Nehemia: Well, it makes me immediately think of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16, where it talks about atonement, which brings about forgiveness.

Keith: Yes. Awesome. And then what?

Nehemia: Atonement is the process that results in forgiveness.

Keith: So, what it makes me think about is, you know, one of the things that I've been so enthralled with, Jono, is this idea that He has these descriptions of who He is and one of them is “El Nohse,” the God who forgives. And I'm like whoa, wait a minute, that's not supposed to happen until, you know, Matthew 26 or whatever. And when I read these kinds of things, it makes me do a slowdown.

Jono: Yeah.

Keith: So, again, I think this is a pretty powerful thing, and look, here's this boring section of the Torah, and I think we're probably more than 10 minutes into the…

Jono: We're almost at the end.

Nehemia: There’s a lot to talk about.

Jono: I'm glad he said this is a place to slow down, it most certainly is a place to slow down.

Keith: Yes, it is.

Jono: And I love the way, Keith, let me just say, I love the way that you said you know that we're so used to backing up into the Tanakh, with all of our theology that we brought with us over the years.

Keith: Yes.

Jono: It's much better that we go through the front door and understand it for what it is, read the text and go with what is in the text. And so, I'm very, very glad that we’re able to focus in on what is in English, the mercy seat, because that is so incredibly important.

Keith: Can I give up a word of grace to my brothers and sisters that do want to back into it? One of the things that I want to say, and I want to be sensitive to this because there are people who have built their entire life in reading Revelations first and then the Torah as an add-on. What we're trying to do is we're trying to let them do what the ancient Israelites would have done. That's why it's so powerful to have Nehemia here, and you, Jono, and myself. We all have different places that we come from, but I think the beauty of it is, in the same way, I want to be sensitive to those people, and let me just say it, I can be the one to say this. They want to see, you know, Yeshua, or Christ, or Jesus, in every single aspect of this. This is going to cause controversy. What are you saying, is he not? No, I'm telling you that when this was written, when it was given, it was given to a group of people who had just come out of slavery. They didn't understand any of that. They understood the Creator of the universe creating a place to dwell with them. And you can do all that retrofitting, and that's what people do, but I want to give grace to them and say, try to do this. Attempt to ask the question, what would an ancient Israelite have understood, and why that's important? And here's why it's important, “kacha”. The Creator of the universe decided to reveal his word this way to that group of people and we come, you know, thousands of years later and say, well this is what it means. Well, hold on, do you really know what it means? Let's find out what it meant, and then let's talk about what it means. OK, that's my speech.

Jono: Brilliant.

Keith: And let's move on.

Jono: Amen. So glad we slowed down there. It was definitely a Torah Pearl. Verse 18, here's a question, you ready, Nehemia? Throwing this one to you.

Nehemia: Sure.

Jono: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold.” Okay, first of all, what is a cherub, and how are we to understand this in relation to the Second Commandment?

Nehemia: Okay, those are two very good questions. So, I would, start with the Second Commandment, which is not to make any kind of idols or images. And my response to that would be, God commanded them specifically to make this, and they certainly weren't supposed to worship it. They were supposed to worship God. And I think that's a general principle, that when God commands you not to do something that has a specific, and then commands you do something much narrower, but that becomes an exception to the rule. An example of that would be the commandment that we have to rest on Shabbat, we're not supposed to work. But then if you're a priest, a Kohen who works in the tabernacle, in the Temple, and you're slaughtering an animal and you're putting it on the fire, that's a lot of work. So, there's a specific exception that, in the tabernacle, in the Temple, you are commanded to work in this specific narrow context. I would say that that's how we have to understand this image that they're making of the cherub.

Having said that, we don't really know what a cherub is. Maybe a cherub wasn't an image of an idol. We don't really know exactly what a cherub is. We hear from this passage and other passages that cherubs have wings, and we find out that they face each other and then they also faced down towards the mercy seat, the “kaporet,” the atonement covering, the atonement object. But that might not be meant literally saying, they face each other. I mean these could be two pillars for all we know that face down and have wings. We really don't know. They're often depicted as men with wings, but I think that comes from other mythologies, not really from the Hebrew mythology…

Jono: Right.

Nehemia: …or from the Hebrew world of these entities. I think it's possible that the cherubs are the things that Ezekiel saw, and that Isaiah saw. That's a possibility, but we really don't know for sure what a cherub is.

Keith: Let me say this, what I think is amazing…

Nehemia: So, this might be a type of cherub. We really don't know, that's the bottom line.

Jono: Sure. Keith?

Keith: What's amazing to me about it is, it goes back to what we talked about a little bit earlier, that whatever it was…

Jono: Moses saw it.

Keith: …Moses saw it. And so, when they created it, and we don't have a copy, we don't have an actual picture of it right now, we don't know where it is unless you ask some people, they know exactly where the Ark is. But no one that I know of right now, has actually seen it. So here's where this is so important is that, again, we are reading this from the perspective of the ancient Israelite. They didn't sit there and say, "We wonder when it was time to create it and we'll get to this a little bit later". It was according to the pattern. And I think, again, this is so mysterious to me and so exciting to me that we're reading this and we're like okay, so he created this, why? Kacha.

Jono: Yeah.

Keith: But I want to, Nehemia, I'm going to steal that just like you steal some things from me, I promise you I love that when you say that to me. Why Nehemia? Kacha.

Nehemia: Kacha.

Keith: But let me just say this, one of the things that's really powerful about this section, and I know we need to move on probably to the next section, is I want to take just one little moment to talk about this ark and these cherubs and whatever it is, what was the purpose? Let's just ask this question right now, most people know this, but what was the purpose?

First of all, in the first section, we know the purpose was "You're going to create this sanctuary for me for I will dwell among them." Now let's ask this question. So what's the purpose? Whatever these cherubs look like, whatever this mercy seat, the atonement cover, the words, what is the purpose of the Ark, and Nehemia, what would you say? Jono, what would you say before we get to the table and the lampstand, because these are really three important things?

Jono: Now, Keith, I'm looking at verse 22. Nehemia, is that fair?

Nehemia: Yeah, I think he's telling us here what the function of it is.

Keith: There it is. And what does it say?

Nehemia: Where he speaks to him.

Keith: Amen. Amen.

Jono: Okay.

Keith: And so why do I get excited about that? Because this is the place, you know, and I love to say if there's an external and an internal, I guess we didn't really get into it so much, but so there's this external idea of Him speaking, but then within the actual ark itself, there is the testimony, where there's the written word and the spoken word. The Ark representing the written word and the spoken word and, of course, second Samuel 6:2, one of my favorite verses regarding the Ark, it says, “And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-Judah to bring up from there the Ark of God, which is called by the name…”

Nehemia: “which is called by the name”!

Keith: “…the very name Yehovah of hosts.” And so basically whatever it was that happened where he spoke to them, and where eventually it became the very place where, because of him speaking, they actually called it yud-hey-vav-hey, I mean they called it by his name, Yehovah. And so, it was used when Moses would say and the Ark would arise, and we'll get to that section in Numbers. So many powerful and important sections in the Torah, but this is just one that I wanted to stop and say, whatever it is that happened, they called it by the name.

Jono: Can I just clarify?

Nehemia: One thing that we -

Jono: Go ahead.

Nehemia: Go ahead.

Jono: Well, no, I was just going to say, Nehemia, verse 22, “And there I will meet with you.” Did I hear you say, “There I will speak with you”? Is that what it says in the Hebrew?

Nehemia: Well, then he says, “And I will meet with you there and I will speak with you from upon the kaporet, from between two cherubs…”

Jono: Yes, okay.

Nehemia: “…that are upon the Ark of the Testimony, and all that I command you to the children of Israel.” And this is significant because later on, we find Yehovah being referred to as “he who sits upon the cherubs.”

Keith: Yes, sir.

Nehemia: It's a reference to this, and an example is Samuel, chapter 4 verse 4, and it refers to the Ark of the Covenant of Yehovah of hosts, who sits upon the cherubs, or the sitter on cherubs. So, the cherubs, the “kruvim,” on the Ark, functioned there as the conduit through which Yehovah spoke to Moses, and that becomes a symbol that this is how Moses got the revelation.

Keith: Yes, sir.

Nehemia: And that is a reminder to people of that revelation; that was a true revelation.

Keith: Okay. Well, Jono, I've really slowed this down a lot. Let's move on.

Jono: No, no, so I have one more question if I may? Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking of people like Isaiah who, in chapter 6, has a vision of the throne room of Yehovah, if you like, and Micaiah in 1st Kings chapter 22, I think the last chapter, if I remember correctly, has a vision of Yehovah in the throne room. Are there any other examples? I mean, is this one, that Moses has been shown on the mountain a vision of the throne room - is there anything else like that?

Nehemia: In the Tanakh, you mean?

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: In the Hebrew Bible. That’s a good question. I mean obviously, there's Ezekiel's vision, and then Daniel has a similar vision as well.

Jono: Okay.

Nehemia: So yeah, those are a couple more.

Jono: Those are a couple more.

Nehemia: And then Ezekiel specifically mentions that there are cherubs in his vision.

Jono: True.

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: So, like Ezekiel 9:3 for example.

Jono: Brilliant. So, it goes on, now, we're looking at the table and the showbread. Now my first question is, I don't know that it mentions that specifically here, but there are meant to be twelve loaves of showbread, right?

Keith: So, let's see what this is part of the text says. Let's see, Jono, do your thing, I mean read it.

Jono: Okay.

Keith: And tell us where you see that.

Jono: “You shall also make a length of acacia wood; two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its width, and a cubit and a half its height. And you shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold all around. You shall make for it a frame of a handbreadth all around, and you shall make a gold molding for the frame all around. And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and put the rings on the four corners that are at its four legs. The rings shall be close to the frame, as holders for the poles to bear the table. And you shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, that the table may be carried with them. You shall make its dishes, its pans, its pitchers, and its bowls for pouring. You shall make them of pure gold. And you shall set the showbread on the table before Me always.”

Keith: Does it say “showbread,” Nehemia?

Nehemia: So, the word is “lechem hapanim,” which I think would be better translated as “the bread of the presence.”

Keith: Yes, sir. There it is.

Jono: Ah. “The bread of the presence.” And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, is it Leviticus 24, I think we see that there are 12 loaves, and I've often heard, Nehemia, that this represents the twelve tribes, but do we have anything to tie that to?

Nehemia: You mean, is there any reason to say it represents the twelve tribes and not say, I don't know, the twelve something else?

Jono: Sure.

Nehemia: And I guess the answer is no. Let's see, here let's read that passage. Leviticus 24, let's see, “On the Sabbath day, every Sabbath, he shall lay out before Yehovah, continually from the children of Israel it is an eternal covenant and it should be for Aaron and his sons,” etc. So let's see, oh, here it is - verse 5, it says “you shall take fine flour and you shall bake it as twelve loaves. Two-tenths shall be for one loaf and you should place as two ma’archot, two layouts, six per layout upon the table, pure table before Yehovah.” Okay, so it's six and six and so that's 12.

Keith: Yeah.

Nehemia: So presumably it is connected to the twelve tribes of Israel, but I suppose that's speculation. We don't know for sure.

Jono: OK.

Nehemia: I suppose it could be the 12 Apostles.

Jono: Keith?

Keith: I thought we agreed we weren't going to… So, I think that the point being that this bread of the presence…so we've got, and again, I've got a little agenda here because we've got this section on the table, who I'll go back to it macro/micro, the big picture/the small picture. The small picture being that there's this bread that's created and that the term being “the bread of presence.” The presence of what? What would be the thought? What’s the presence of?

Nehemia: Of Yehovah.

Keith: Amen. So again, the first thing, we're going to build this ark and that's going to be where I'm going to speak. And I get this image, Nehemia, when they're carrying the Ark, it reminds me of sort of the pictures I'd see of these movies where they'd have the poles through the deal, these people would be carrying it and above it would be this beautiful looking deal and then on the king or the queen would be within that, and they'd be walking along and see it. So that basically, this idea that when this ark itself was sort of like the chariot, meaning it's picking it up, you're carrying it, and above that where the cherubs are, is actually where they would say that that's where He sits and that's where He's decided to come and share, give information. So that's kind of a powerful picture.

And then the table, the table now is the second piece of furniture where we have the bread of the presence and again, it reminds them, what? This is His presence that He's coming to meet with us. So now let's go to the lampstand and then we can do…

Nehemia: Hey, Keith, can we quickly go back to the Ark for a second?

Jono: Please.

Keith: Sure.

Nehemia: Because I just want to correct something. So, we said there's a certain number of times, I think it was seven, that we have “Ark of the Covenant,” but then we have another 35 times where it's “the Ark of the Covenant of Yehovah,” where we have that full phrase there. That's actually the more common phrase, Ark of the Covenant of Yehovah. I think that's interesting because, what is the covenant? Which covenant is it talking about? What is the Covenant of Yehovah that is being referred to? And I think maybe it definitely has to refer to the Covenant at Sinai. That is the covenant. In other words, what is in the Ark? What's in the Ark, we're told, is the two Tablets of Stone, which have the Ten Words on them, or the Ten Commandments, and that's the covenant that He made. But then also the entire covenant revealed in the Torah was also spoken from that place. So in that sense, it's also in the broader sense, the covenant.

Keith: Okay, awesome. So Jono, we have the covenant, the Ark, we have the table with the bread. Can we go to the third piece of furniture?

Jono: We've got the golden lampstand, right? This is where we're up to, “You shall make a lampstand of pure gold; the lampstand shall be of hammered work.” And it's beautifully decorated, isn't it? It's got flowers…

Nehemia: Yeah.

Jono: All this sort of stuff and the details are all there. What is the significance?

Keith: Question.

Jono: Keith?

Keith: Exactly. So, no, that's what I wanted to say. I think it's interesting when we look at the first, and there's only three pieces of furniture that he speaks of here, on which we all agree. The three pieces of, if I use the word ‘furniture,’ please bear with me, I'm an American. Over here, the idea that here's this beautiful home of this place of meeting that's going to be set up and within it, there are going to be three pieces created, separate pieces of furniture, and one, the Ark, two, the table, three, the lampstand. And I think one of the things that's amazing to me about this is that again, what would be the purpose of the lampstand in the midst of this place where the Creator of the universe is going to meet with them? And that's simply a question, because unless you see something here, imagine I'm listening to this right now, I don't know anything beyond this chapter, I'm listening to this, and this is actually an interesting thing also we can talk about, how things are later interpreted as we read and based on what we actually have in the Torah. So based on the Torah, what do we understand the lampstand to mean?

Nehemia: It's a lamp for giving light?

Jono: That's the only thing that's coming to my mind, to be honest. I'm thinking it's there so that you can see what you're doing, right?

Nehemia: Exactly.

Jono: Keith?

Keith: No, I'm asking you guys a question. Where's the stake, where is the money ball?

Nehemia: It’s a trick question.

Keith: Where is the money ball?

Nehemia: It’s the lampstand that gives light.

Jono: Yeah, it seems, absolutely, no, it seems practical; it seems reasonable. I mean, what's going through your mind?

Keith: No, I'm asking the question. Before, we know what the table and the bread is for, we know what the Ark is for, is simply, it's just to bring light, that's it. But it's got to be created this way with this many, what do you call, how many how branches?

Jono: The arms and the lamps, and all that sort of stuff.

Nehemia: Seven.

Jono: There’s seven of those.

Keith: Come on.

Nehemia: Let me just share a quick story. I was traveling around with some people and this lady asked me, this was actually, you know, on Hanukkah. You have a something called a Hanukkiah, which is an eight-branched lampstand which represents, in Rabbinical tradition, the supposed miracle of the eight days of Hanukkah, and I say ‘supposed’ because it never really happened, but that's a different story. Anyway, so she says to me, Nehemia, I keep seeing the seven-branched menorah, what's that? And I said, are you kidding me? The seven branch menorah was the one in the Temple, the eight-branched one isn't even called the menorah in Hebrew, it's called a Hanukkiah, which is a Hanukkah lamp, and when you say menorah in Hebrew, you refer to the seven-branched candelabrum, that's all you refer to. I think the menorah for the history of Israel is pretty significant. In fact, I'm sitting here in my living room and I'm looking up and I have a…

Jono: You’ve got a flag.

Nehemia: The Israeli flag.

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: But instead of a Star of David in the middle, which isn't even really an ancient symbol, in Judaism at least, I have a menorah, and that's because we find the menorah as the earliest symbol of Israel. On the coins of the Hasmoneans from the second century BC, you have the menorah; that is the symbol of ancient Israel, and so symbolically, it has come to represent the Temple. You see that in the prophecy of Zechariah, that there’s this oil pouring from two sides into the menorah, and that represents, in the book of Zechariah, the two anointed ones. The two anointed ones, in my understanding, are the high priest who is anointed with oil and the King, the descendant of David who is anointed with oil.

Keith: Come on with that.

Nehemia: So that is, and what is standing in the middle between them? The Temple represented by the menorah, the candelabrum.

Jono: So, Keith, this is a fascinating thing because you've got, as Nehemia says, the menorah is the most ancient symbol of Israel, and it's interesting because, as you say, it's not the only piece of furniture. We've got the Ark of the testimony, we've got the table, we've got the bread of the presence, but it's the menorah that seems to have been chosen to represent Israel. What goes through your mind?

Keith: Well, the only thing for me, and I want to say this, I want to leave the farm for just one second. So, when I'm reading this, I attempt to try to ask myself, what's the connection, previous, you know, future, all that sort of thing. That's something that I've done, I've been trained to do that. But one of the things that I do slow down and think about is, I say, okay, now if I'm sitting there and I'm listening to this, and I've heard about, “In the beginning, the Creator, God created the heavens and the earth, and he did this." And then I hear about him saying “vayihi or, yahi or,” and there shall be light, and light was. And then here we have this important piece of furniture. And I think okay, He could have said, let there be four branches or He said let there be twelve. Instead, He says seven. And immediately, I think about that when He created, He says okay, I'm going to do this seven days, and the seven days are going to be for fulfillment. It takes me seven days to do this, the seventh day will be a day of rest. And when I think of this lampstand, unlike the one that is presently representative of Hanukkah, the seven branches, I think about His creation and I think about how He created the earth by creating light, there was evening, there was morning, there was evening, there was morning, seven different times.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: So, for me when I read it, I get kind of excited. I don't know that that's got, really, it doesn't certainly put any more theological meaning into it, but it certainly is a powerful testimony of His creation, and the fact that light was the thing that He spoke, the first words out of His mouth were light. And so I think there's no coincidence that this is the image that's even used today as a representation of the sanctuary. I mean it's kind of a powerful picture. Now, what is Israel supposed to be? A light to the nations.

Jono: Amen.

Nehemia: Come on.

Keith: And may it be that that happens.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: May they be a light to the nations. And why did they come in and take that when they went in and destroyed the Temple? And they have the picture, and Nehemia, which we talked about, where they're carrying off the menorah, why do they take that? Listen, they're a light to the nations; let's get the light. I mean, Yehovah is going to have His testimony and His light. And those that are out there, you understand what I'm talking about. There's a light to the nations and so I'm excited about this.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: So, we can move on, guys.

Jono: “The Tabernacle,” we're in chapter 26. Here we are in the Tabernacle, my goodness.

Nehemia: There’s really nothing to talk about in this Torah portion.

Jono: There is just -

Keith: I told you Nehemia, I want to stop and make a commercial. I want to throw him under the bus. “You need to come up with something else,” he says. “We don't have anything to talk about.” Are you kidding me? This thing is packed with information.

Nehemia: Just a bunch of instructions.

Keith: “Just a bunch of instructions,” he says to me.

Nehemia: This is like accounting, this is like, yeah, whatever.

Jono: Yeah, no.

Nehemia: It's like Moses went to Ikea and here are the instructions on how to put it together.

Keith: Okay, go ahead, Jono.

Jono: Alright, well, I tell you what, we're in chapter 26, we're talking about the Tabernacle. Nehemia, what jumps out in this chapter here?

Nehemia: I want to jump to verse 9 and ask you to read it. This is a tiny little thing anyway, but verse 9.

Jono: It says in verse 9, “And you shall couple five curtains by themselves and six curtains by themselves, and you shall double over with six curtains at the forefront of the tent.”

Nehemia: So, the word they translated as “double over” in Hebrew is the word “kafal,” from the word “kaful,” or “lekapel,” and apparently, and this is on the level, this is the source of the English word “couple,” the word “lekapel.” Which is really interesting, you don't have a lot of English words that come from Hebrew words, but here's an example of one, “couple.”

Jono: Nice.

Keith: The thing that caught my attention in this section was the fact that there were the fifty loops. At first, I was thinking about the fifty times we find that the name in the Leningrad until we found 51 with our friend Ira. But let me say one of the things that hits me is when I see the word fifty, then I start thinking about the other places where fifty is so important. Until the sabbatical year and all these kind of things, and so I think what's interesting about this is that the specifics of it, and we could sit down on any one of these sections, any one of these sentences, and unpack them like we've done. But my suggestion is going to be that we encourage people to, what you started out this whole Torah portion, Jono, which was, you don't have to rush through this. We prayed the prayer, let our eyes be opened. And could we all agree that that prayer is being answered as we were going through this section, that our eyes are being opened to things that maybe we haven’t thought about?

Nehemia: Hallelujah.

Keith: And that people will continue to have their eyes open to be able to see what the Torah is saying to us, not only back then, but what it's saying to us now.

Nehemia: Come on!

Keith: And I think there's a lot in it. So we don't have to go through every single description of this, but I do think it's pretty powerful stuff if you take your time.

Jono: So, before we clarify the way that it is set out, because we're talking about two rooms, right, two sections, one of which being the Holy of Holies. I just want to just quickly…

Nehemia: There are really three sections. There's the courtyard…

Jono: The courtyard on the outside, yeah.

Nehemia: …the Holy, and the Holy of Holies. The courtyard, the Holy, and the Holy of Holies. That's three sections.

Jono: Now, let me just ask the question, because this has been the subject of so many news articles over the years and particularly, well, in certain circles. Nehemia is it in…

Nehemia: Yeah?

Jono: …is it hidden under your bed? Where is the Ark of the Covenant now? Where is it?

Nehemia: Where is the Ark of the Covenant?

Jono: Yeah!

Nehemia: I don't have that information. I don't know. There's a really interesting verse in the Book of Jeremiah.

Keith: Very interesting.

Nehemia: I could totally go off..

Keith: No, this is in the subject. This is a very important verse.

Nehemia: Can we jump to the Book of Jeremiah?

Jono: Yep.

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: Because one of the things a lot of people are… let me back up to something called the Second Book of Maccabees. In the Second Book of Maccabees, there's a legend about how Jeremiah, of all people, ironically, hid the Ark, and that it'll remain hidden until things are revealed to us at the end. That's in the second Book of Maccabees. Ironically, in Jeremiah chapter 3 verse 16, we read as follows, and I'll read to you from the King James Version. “And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD,” and that’s Yehovah, ‘LORD’ in caps, “they shall say no more, The Ark of the covenant of the LORD; neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.” And it goes on in the very next verse and it says, “At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD,” Remember, he's told, “He who sits upon the cherubs”. So, one of the functions of the Ark is it was essentially a throne. It was what Yehovah sat on, so to speak. “At that time,” verse 17, “they shall call Jerusalem the throne of Yehovah and all nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of Yehovah,” Come on, Keith!

Jono: There it is.

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: Say Amen, Keith.

Keith: Amen. Amen.

Nehemia: “To the name of Yehovah, to Jerusalem. All,” I will read it again, “All the nations shall be gathered unto it…”

Jono: All the nations!

Nehemia: “…to the name of Yehovah, to Jerusalem, neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.” Whoo! I'm excited.

Keith: Yes. Amen.

Nehemia: Whoo!

Keith: Well, you know, I always said this…

Nehemia: So, I think it’s interesting that some people…

Keith: Go ahead.

Nehemia: …get all obsessed about, where's the Ark? It's hidden; it's underneath this place and that guy found it, which maybe he did, I don't know. But the bottom line is, when the Messiah comes and is here in Jerusalem and is sitting on this throne of Israel as a flesh and blood king…

Jono: Amen.

Nehemia: …no one is going to be thinking about the Ark of the Covenant. It won't even come to mind.

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: Thus sayeth Yehovah, in the Book of Jeremiah, chapter 3 verse 17.

Keith: Amen. And you know what? That's just another example of how we're reading about this information, this is as much as we get to see, Jono. We get to see, basically, what are the instructions for it to be made, etc., and why was the cherub there and all these things. But in the end, guess what? It's going to be all about Him. It's going to be all about Him. I think that’s just so powerful and yet at the same time, He's giving a foreshadow, He's saying, hey listen, create this, I'm going to come and meet with you I'm going to dwell with you. And then we read it, and I’m so excited that we are doing discussions, talking about the prophets because so much can come as a result of reading that. But in the end, it still comes back to who our Creator is and what He has given us. And right now, He has given us His word, and we're able to interact with him through His word. And you know what? It does excite my friend, Nehemia, it excites me here, and it excites you, and hopefully, it's exciting people there, that we're interacting with the living Word of God.

Nehemia: That's exciting.

Keith: Yeah, I can't get enough of it. So anyway, Jono, we can move on.

Jono: Alright.

Keith: Again, we don't have a lot of time, but I think just the idea that people can read and ask what part of this makes them want to slow down. For me, it was the fifty because I think about all the times He uses that. For Nehemia, it's the coupling. Okay, great. For Jono maybe, who knows what it is. But the point is there's plenty in there for all of us.

Jono: Amen. So, we have courtyard, we have the veil room, and then we have the Holy of Holies. Now before we get into the Holy of Holies, it's the room before it, right? That has the table, it has the lampstand, it has the bread of the presence…

Nehemia: In the Holy.

Jono: In the Holy. And now the Holy of Holies, this is the one that the high priest goes into once a year, right?

Keith: And I want to ask a question before we get to that.

Jono: Yeah?

Jono: Nehemia, can you give for the listeners, real quick, you said the Holy and the Holy of Holies. Can you actually give them the words, so they can write these words down, the description?

Jono: There we go.

Nehemia: Sure. So, the courtyard, in Hebrew…

Keith: Yeah, the three sections.

Nehemia: Okay, the courtyard is called the “chatser,” which in English…

Keith: Chatser.

Nehemia: I guess you could call C-H-A-T-S-E-R “chatser,” that's the courtyard. And then you have the Kodesh, which in English I guess you’d spell K-O-D-E-S-H, and that's not Hodesh, which is New Moon or month. It's Kodesh with a “kuf,” or in English, “K”.

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: And then you have “Kodesh Kodashim,” “Kodesh Kodashim” is the Holy of the Holies. And in Hebrew, when you say something like “Kodesh Kodashim,” or just Holy of Holies or Shir HaShirim, the Song of Songs, what you mean is the most Holy, the greatest song, that's the Hebrew superlative.

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: That is the Hebrew way of saying the most of something. So Kodesh Kodashim really, you could really legitimately translate as the holy of holy, or excuse me, it is Holy of Holies, literally. You can legitimately translate it as the most Holy, just like Song of Songs…

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: …you could legitimately translate, as the greatest song.

Keith: Yes.

Nehemia: It's not just any song, this is the Song of Songs. And Yehovah is called “Elohei HaElohim,” the God of Gods. It doesn't mean there's many gods, but it means he's the greatest God, that all the other ones are fake and he's the greatest God. And they said “Adonei HaAdonim,” the Lord of Lords, which means all those other ones, those are just human beings you're treating as your Lord, or things you've made up in your imagination. He's the greatest Lord.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: Amen.

Nehemia: So, it's the Hebrew way of expressing superlative.

Jono: And so, in the Holy of Holies, the only thing that's in there is the Ark of the testimony, right? That's it? The Ark of the Convent?

Nehemia: That’s, well, what we read before is, he puts the jar of the manna before the Ark of the Testimony. So presumably, the jar of the manna is in front of the Ark. And then we also have a few other references to other things that may have been there as well.

Jono: And so…

Nehemia: Later on, in Numbers, we have the rod that Aaron…

Jono: Aaron's rod, the almond branch that budded? And so, you're telling me that's not actually in the Ark, those things are before the Ark.

Nehemia: Well, no, we know the only thing in the Ark, we're told in the book of Kings…I’ll read you the verse.

Keith: Now, hold on here, just a minute. Now, doggone it.

Nehemia: Oh-oh.

Keith: Nehemia, what are you talking about? In Hebrews, it says that there are other things there; it's in the book of Hebrews.

Nehemia: Well.

Jono: Well, hang on Keith. I mean you're talking about Hebrews? Let's be specific.

Nehemia: Let's first establish…

Keith: No, no, I want to…

Nehemia: …let's first establish what it says in the Tanakh, because you agree that the book of Hebrews comes after the Tanakh, meaning it's based on the Tanakh.

Keith: Well, hold on, just second. Now, just a minute because now, we're going to take some time on this, guys. I'm going to ask for our listeners to…

Nehemia: Can I?

Keith: No! Just a second, just a minute.

Nehemia: Mah zeh?

Keith: Before you read, before you establish that, I want to give an example of how things sometimes get a little confusing. So Jono, I would like you, in your King James Version, to go to the book of Hebrews, which is supposed to be a picture of what's inside the Ark. Then we're going to ask, you know, the Hebrew expert here, how he reconciles this for us. So Jono…

Jono: Alright.

Keith: …would you open up Hebrews? I think it's chapter 9.

Jono: Sure, chapter 9, it's short.

Keith: Yeah.

Jono: It says, okay, I've got it, it says, “Then indeed, even the first covenant,” which is in italics, which means it's not there.

Keith: Yes.

Jono: But that's what it says, “had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary, for a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called," as Nehemia said, “the Holiest of All.” And it goes on to say, “which had the golden censer and the Ark of the Covenant overlaid on the sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the Tablets of the Covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.”

Keith: So just a second. Thank you for giving the context. It says there are three things in the Ark, what are they again? The golden pot?

Jono: OK, three things. It says, “In which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.” So, the gold and the…

Keith: So, I want to use my example. I'm going to give this to you, Nehemia, in just a second. So, I want to use an example for the people that are listening, why, if I start with Hebrews, it tells me that there's a golden pot inside of the Ark. Does it say that, yes or no?

Jono: That's what it's saying; that's what it says in mine.

Keith: And it says, inside the Ark is also the…

Jono: “In which were the golden pot that had the manna.”

Keith: Okay, so now we either have Hebrews saying that's what it was, or we’ve got to go to the Tanakh to see what it really was. And if it doesn't fit, we must acquit; there's a problem here. So Nehemia, would you do us a favor? Would you please help me…

Nehemia: They must acquit.

Keith: No, you must come up with some Hebrew word that golden pot means something that is in there. So, can you tell us, from your understanding, what you believed to be in the Ark? And then let's see if it matches.

Nehemia: Forget what I believe. Let's start with what was in the Holy of Holies.

Keith: Okay.

Nehemia: And so we have Numbers 17 verse 25, “And Yehovah said to Moses, ‘return the rod of Aaron before the testimony to be kept as a sign for the children of rebellion,’” etc., etc. So the first thing, that’s the rod of Aaron, Numbers 17:10; actually, the second thing, because the first thing we already read was in Exodus 16, the jar with the manna. So we have two things that are in front of the testimony. It says, “Before the testimony.” So, they're in the Holy of Holies, they're not actually in the Ark. And how do I know that? It's not a matter of what I believe, it says in 1 Kings, chapter 8 verse 9, I'm reading from the King James Version, “There was nothing in the Ark save the two tables of stone.” And that's horrible, “tables,” they certainly weren't tables. So, let me read you from a normal…alright, let's do the New King James Version. “Nothing was in the Ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Yehovah made,” then it has covenant in italics. In the Hebrew it, let’s see, it doesn't say, let's see, it says, “asher karat Yehovah im bnei Israel,” which Yehovah cut with the children of Israel. It doesn't say the word, covenant, “with the children of Israel when they came out of the land of Egypt.” Okay, so we have, what's in the Ark? It says here, nothing but the two tablets of stone.

Jono: Two tablets of stone. Okay.

Nehemia: Somebody say, first witness.

Jono: First witness.

Keith: That's a first witness, yes.

Nehemia: 2 Chronicles, chapter 5 verse 10. “Nothing's in the Ark except the two tablets which Moses put there at Horeb when the Lord made a covenant with the children of Israel when they had come out of Egypt.” Somebody say, second witness.

Jono: Second witness.

Keith: That's a second witness.

Jono: There it is.

Nehemia: OK. So just a couple…this is kind of a funny story. Keith and I were in the…

Keith: No, no.

Nehemia: …southern Israel. What, you're not going to let me share this? I'm going to share it.

Keith: I want…

Nehemia: So, Keith and I were in southern Israel at a place just north of Eilat, called Timna, which has ancient copper mines. They were, at one point, Solomon's copper mines. Before that, they were the copper mines of the Pharaohs. And it's interesting because Timna, these ancient copper mines, all of a sudden, you're there in the desert at the copper mines and you keep driving and you come upon the Tabernacle, a full one-to-one scale model of the Tabernacle.

Jono: Really?

Nehemia: And the scale model of it, yeah, full-size Tabernacle model. And interestingly enough, it's very strange because Timna is an Israeli national park, but then all of a sudden, in the middle of this national park, you have this tabernacle that isn't run by the National Park System. It's run by a group of Christian missionaries, which is kind of surprising…

Jono: Wow.

Nehemia: …but there it is. And when Keith and I were there, we were looking at it, and what's cool is that you could actually walk inside the Holy, which I couldn't have done in ancient Israel because I'm not a Kohen, a priest.

Jono: You would have been struck down.

Nehemia: And then also we walk in the Holy of Holies, which only the high priest was really allowed to do on Yom Kippur, but, of course, this is a model, not the real thing.

Jono: Sure.

Nehemia: And you walk into the Holy of Holies and you uncover the Ark of the Covenant and you don't have fire and stuff coming out of you like in the movie Indiana Jones, where their faces were melted off. You can actually look inside, and what you see inside is three things. The three things you see inside are the Tablets of Stone, the jar of the manna, and Aaron’s staff, which is kind of fun, or kind of strange, because we just read two witnesses in the Torah, excuse me, in the Tanakh, there was nothing in there except for the two Tablets of Stone. Why did it say that in the Book of Chronicles and Kings? I don't think they were thinking about what Hebrews would say a thousand years later. What they were thinking is that, we don't want anybody believing we've got an idol in here. Because that's what the Pagans certainly thought, you know, you have a Holy of Holies, then that must be where you keep your idol. Because that's where we keep our idols, that's the Pagan way of thinking. So, what it's telling us is there's nothing in there except for the two Tablets of Stone. It's not about idols; this is about the Covenant that Yehovah established with Israel when they came out of Egypt. So what's going on here? Is this a contradiction? And what translation did you read from before, Jono? That was the New King James?

Jono: That was a New King James.

Nehemia: Can you read from your NIV? Can you read from your NIV, what it says in Hebrews chapter 9 verse 4?

Keith: Well I've made it a point that, while we're doing the Torah portions, I'm only reading the Torah. I make Jono go to the New Testament.

Nehemia: Okay, so Jono, do you have an NIV or do I have to do it?

Jono: I've got an NIV.

Nehemia: I’ll read it…you do? Okay.

Jono: I think I’ve got one.

Nehemia: So, you can read verses…

Jono: I’m reaching behind. The archaeological study Bible of the Nearly Inspired Version, this is Hebrews chapter 9.

Nehemia: …verses 2 to 4.

Jono: For clarity, here we go, are you ready? Okay.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jono: Brace yourselves. Verses 2 to 4. It says, “A tabernacle was set up.”

Nehemia: Amen, that's true.

Jono: Yep. “In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread,”

Nehemia: Amen.

Jono: “This was called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place.” Okay, we're good so far, aren’t we? Okay.

Nehemia: Actually in Greek, it has “Hagia Hagia,” which is just like “Kodesh Kodashim.”

Jono: Nice.

Nehemia: It's the same structure of expressing the superlative through repetition…

Jono: OK.

Nehemia: …which is a very un-Greek way of addressing it. Alright, go on.

Jono: So, we're still happy, “…which had the golden altar of incense and the golden-covered Ark of the Covenant. This Ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.”

Nehemia: So, the words “This Ark,” aren't in the Greek. I'm looking right now at the Greek; I don't see it.

Jono: Really?

Nehemia: And I'm going to throw a bone to Keith and his people and tell them that you can legitimately read this and say that what it's saying, that the words… and you had before, I believe, read the New King James Version, which I think is probably a little bit closer to the Greek, in this case. And it says, “In which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the Tablets of the Covenant.” Well, in which? Does that refer to the Ark?

Keith: The holiest.

Nehemia: Or does that refer to the holiest of all, the holiest room? You could have what the missionaries have down there in the Negev desert at Timna, which is three things inside the Ark. But, if you want to believe Chronicles and Kings, and still maintain this as being true, which you know, I'm not a Christian, so it doesn't matter to me. But if you wanted to do that, you would have to say, “In which were the golden pot,” goes back to the previous verse, where it says, where it's describing what's inside the Holy place, the holiest, the Holy of Holies.

Keith: Right. Yes.

Nehemia: In other words, “In which,” doesn't have to be referring to the Ark. I mean, this isn't even a forced interpretation. You could legitimately read it that way in the Greek, and even in the English, that “In which” refers to the Holy of Holies.

Keith: Holy of Holies. Yes.

Nehemia: And that's true, that the golden pot of manna and Aaron's rod were in the Holy of Holies. That's a hundred percent. Amen.

Keith: Well, I have to tell everybody, Jono, if it's okay, I have to let them know what happened. I want to give them a glimpse over in the beginning we're going to…

Jono: Please.

Keith: …we're talking about the Torah portions and they wanted to set me up with Hebrews, and I thought I was going to be the one to basically throw the bone, but Nehemia, I want to thank you for what you just did. It was really very powerful. And I want to say this, and people might think we're kidding around, but the serious aspect of this is, so what sometimes happens is in the English version there can be some assumptions. And so, one of the things we want, at least, to be able to do is see what the Greek says, and I was hoping to be able to throw the bone to my brothers and sisters, but it's my Jewish brother, Nehemia, who's reading from the Greek and says, look, you know what? There’s a legitimate way that this could be translated this way. And I want to tell you how much I appreciate that, because this is not about us bashing anyone, we simply want to know what the text says, and that's one thing I've appreciated, and I don't know if people realize or not, Nehemia was saying Amen, Amen, Amen, as Jono was reading the New Testament. I'm telling you, ladies and gentlemen, there's a good thing happening here. What's the aim of it…

[laughter]

Keith: No, listen. Hey, listen, let me…

Nehemia: That’s true. I don’t have a problem with it.

Keith: And that's what I want to say. Let me just say something, Jono and Nehemia. What I want to say is this. You know what? Some people get mad at us and they say well, yeah, but you know, this doesn't fit my theology. But when something is true, when something is right, we can say Amen. And there are aspects that Nehemia could hear or even read, and see the truth in it. And what we really want to do is we want to do what the writers in the New Testament, I think, set out to do, which was to say, here's the Tanakh, here's how we're understanding it now. And again, where it doesn't fit, we got to figure that’s there’s something going on that if we can't get it to fit, we're going to have to really bring it as a question.

But I want to tell you, I appreciate, Nehemia, you doing that because that wasn't simply a bone, that was looking at what the Greek says and saying, it could be interpreted as what they mean is this, and that still fits with Kings. So we can move on, I want to say that was a huge thing that you did. I thought I was going to do it, and I'm glad you did it. It makes it even more important to those that are listening that do have a certain understanding. And Jono, your patience as we go through this, because I do think that was important. So, we can really…

Jono: No, I really, I thank you.

Keith: I really appreciate that, Nehemia.

Jono: And I do. And obviously, there's a lot in that for people to think about, there's a lot of homework there.

Keith: Yes.

Jono: I would love to hear from listeners in the comments section. Chapter 27, here we go now, now, is this…

Nehemia: I want to just emphasize how interesting it is that the NIV had to add the words, “this Ark contained,” which isn't in the Greek.

Keith: Right.

Nehemia: Like they couldn't let it go. They had to make it the Ark, even though that's obviously not the case. That's obviously a misinterpretation of the Greek, and not consistent with what it says in the Tanakh.

Keith: Thank you.

Nehemia: But they had to add those words. Alright.

Keith: Thank you, sir.

Jono: Chapter 27, now it wasn't so long ago, we were talking about the altar that Joshua has on Mount Ebal. Here we are “The Altar of Burnt Offering,” chapter 27, and the details thereof. And it begins with some dimensions and it says, “You shall make horns on its four corners.” Now, this reminds me, these are the horns that people can flee to if they've accidentally murdered someone, somehow, murdered or killed someone, that the head flies off the ax. Are these the horns that they run to, Nehemia?

Nehemia: Well, it says, actually, “You do take them from the horns.”

Jono: Alright.

Nehemia: So yeah, these are the horns, but the horns don't help you if you're a murderer, you're going to be taken from the horns and executed.

Jono: But if it's an accident.

Nehemia: And we actually have an example of that.

Jono: Yeah?

Nehemia: Well then you don't need the horns and you go to the City of Refuge. We have an example of that in the book of Kings where Joab, or Yoav, who has murdered two people in cold blood, and King David, unfortunately, didn't have the political power because he (Yoav) was essentially the top general, he didn’t have the political power to depose him. But he said to his son, when you take over and you're established as king, you take care of this; you get yourself a different general. And Yoav went and he grabbed the horns of the altar, and he was taken and put to death.

Keith: Let me just say this, for those that, you know, because this Torah portion when we’ll actually see it, if people haven't heard about what happened regarding Joshua's altar and the connection, I hope that they'll go to the Truth2U interview with myself and Nehemia and also Yoel. Two different interviews about this very, very, important archaeological discovery, and the chance for Yoel and Nehemia to go and visit and what happened there. I hope people will do that because it really is…

Nehemia: It was exciting.

Keith: …very powerful interviews on that.

Jono: Indeed, they are. Thank you for that.

Keith: Okay.

Jono: And so, it goes on with some more details in regards to that. It goes on to the Court of the Tabernacle, and this is the last passage that it talks about in this Torah portion. Is there anything that we want to pull out in the Court of the Tabernacle, Keith, anything there?

Keith: Well, no. The only thing I would say, I appreciated us taking the time to give people the words of the three sections of what was happening. And also I think it's kind of interesting that there's sort of this, I was really kind of overwhelmed when I saw the pictures of Joshua's altar and the little brick, what I call it, Nehemia, a very small, I don't know how high it was, but the perimeter around that altar. It almost looked like they were attempting to say, okay, this is kind of a, can I use this prototype of what, or a picture, actually, of what would have been around there. So, I just thought it was really interesting to see that, and the idea that when you're entering into this, you're entering into a place where He meets with them and, you know, there's the courtyard and then there's the Holy and the Holy of Holies. But all of that being just another macro picture of the Creator saying, "here's where I'm going to meet, and how you're going to approach me." So again, I just think that's important.

Jono: No absolutely. And shall I just quickly remind people? There are wonderful photos, just coming back to those two programs about the altar.

Keith: Yes.

Jono: Nehemia has taken some great photos. There are also some beautiful photos there by Yoel, if people want to look at that and get an idea, as you mentioned, Keith, a prototype of the altar that is in the Tabernacle, ultimately in the temple. Nehemia, is there anything else that you want to pull out at the Torah portion?

Keith: No, of course not. There is nothing to talk about. There is nothing to talk.

Nehemia: Ok. Well, you know what? There are some things, but I'm going to save those for when we get to –

Keith: Awesome.

Nehemia: Because here's the interesting thing, a lot of these details, most of them, are then repeated.

Jono: Oh, cool, so we can do it all again.

Nehemia: Torah portions down the road.

Jono: Excellent.

Nehemia: Right, so I'm going to save it for then. You know, I do want to invite people to come to my Facebook page, where I have over, on Facebook, you talked about photos, so I have a photo up there in an album called “Israel Places,” and I have over a hundred photos there of amazing places around Israel. And one of the places I have, and maybe you'll use this for the Torah portion, which is a replica that was made in Jerusalem of the lamp, of the menorah, from the Temple.

Jono: Oh, great.

Nehemia: And you know, I have a main photograph of that from Jerusalem, it's made of gold, and also a photo there of Joshua's altar, along with all kinds of other interesting archeological places, and just places around Israel that are interesting. So come find me on Facebook and become my friend.

Jono: There you go.

Nehemia: I need friends. I don't want Keith to have more than me.

Jono: That’s it. That is the Torah portion. Oh, my goodness, that's hilarious. You said it was going to be boring, you said, we got nothing to talk about. I don't know how long we've been talking for. Thank you, Nehemia Gordon, and Keith Johnson.

Keith: Thank you.

Jono: Their books and DVDs are available from the website. And a reminder, if you've only just discovered the Torah Pearls program, you'll find the entire archive freely available to download simply by clicking on the Torah Pearls page. And next week, we are in Tesaveh. Tesaveh, did I get that right?

Nehemia: Tetzaveh.

Jono: Ah, goody. Exodus 27 verse 20 to 30, verse 10. And until then, dear listeners, be blessed and be set apart by the truth of our Father's word. Shalom.

You have been listening to The Original Torah Pearls with Nehemia Gordon, Keith Johnson and Jono Vandor. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

We hope the above transcript has proven to be a helpful resource in your study. While much effort has been taken to provide you with this transcript, it should be noted that the text has not been reviewed by the speakers and its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. If you would like to support our efforts to transcribe the teachings on NehemiasWall.com, please visit our support page. All donations are tax-deductible (501c3) and help us empower people around the world with the Hebrew sources of their faith!

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The photo at the top of this page is of a replica of the Menorah made by the “Temple Institute” who intends to use in the future Temple. The replica is gold-plated instead of solid gold as commanded in the Torah (Exodus 25:36, 39). It also has a stepped base instead of a tripod as in the earliest Jewish artistic representations of the Menorah. The stepped base comes from the portrayal of the Menorah on the Arch of Titus in Rome. Location: Jewish Quarter, Old City, Jerusalem.

  • elda says:

    I grew up with science, without God. I later learned of God and I believe He is science. So when I hear this I see all the gold that was used even in paper thin sheets. I think why? Gold is one of if not THE best conductor of electrons. Electrons hold an atom together. We and everything are made of atoms. We in HIM and HE in us. I don’t know exactly how, but God is, in my mind, in atoms. He is all power, we are told we can’t look upon Him. Try looking at lightening. What happens to a tree struck by lightening. That is why it all had to be coated or made of gold. He freely moves in gold. Heart of gold or heart of wood/stone.

  • shell says:

    Oh keith, you had me so excited that you were challenging paul and the book of hebrews 😞 i wanted the money-ball 😭 lol!

  • David Pollina says:

    Sorry, but the attempt to excuse Hebrew’s obvious ERROR here is scholastically dishonest. The Greek here is:

    χρυσοῦν ἔχουσα θυμιατήριον καὶ τὴν κιβωτὸν τῆς διαθήκης περικεκαλυμμένην πάντοθεν χρυσίῳ ἐν ᾗ στάμνος χρυσῆ ἔχουσα τὸ μάννα καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος Ἀαρὼν ἡ βλαστήσασα καὶ αἱ πλάκες τῆς διαθήκης

    The first part is continuing with the object of the Most Holy Place, but in the second part the object changes to the Ark. The prepositional phrase ἐν ᾗ here is directly linked grammatically to the Ark and there is absolutely NO way to separate it with Xtian gymnastics and somehow take the jar and rod out of the Ark.

  • Julia Shaw says:

    I would like to know what is Colossians 2:16 truly meaning. Thanks.

    • Jose Frank Geraldino Amarante says:

      The key versicles to understand that are Col. 2.8 and Col 2.22, you need to ask yourself this simple question: Are the books of Moses doctrine of men or rudiments of the world? If they are not, then read again the complete chapter and you will fully understand what Paul means with that.

  • donald murphy says:

    i have enjoyed Camber’s bit of truth on people not going to heaven. It drives me bonkers to hear that the dead r going to heaven. Praise Yehovah’s truths. Leave the christian nonsense out please.

  • Nunya Biz says:

    Literally the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, the Pope’s holy place, Rome. re: ur Arch of Titus menorah reference in ur featured pic….btw, our Altar of Incense lies sideways with the table of shewbread on top of it, in that Titus relief

  • donald murphy says:

    once again I say to all, please stay away from the false new testament as u r wasting your time.

    • David says:

      I’m not against the NT, but I’m certainly not a fan of Paul. Throwing out the whole thing is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

  • Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

    4 Which had (The TABERNACLE WHICH HAD) the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein (still talking about the TABERNACLE wherein) was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded (BREAK HERE)

    and the tables of the covenant (connected to verse 5)

    5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

    In other words, the TABERNACLE(the Holy of Holies) contained all those things and the tablets are the thing that had the cherubim over it because the tablets were inside the ark.

  • Let US Hope those that now Sea wOOd become Blind, and those that are Blind woUld kNOW SEE the Mystery of Mighty YeHoVaH’s Treasured Moshiach! Let the Tongs Bring Forth The Burning Coals to bee placed upon Thirsting Lips, burning the Iniquity from a Golden Calf’s Heart, Mind & Soul! May The LIVING WORD be SEEN by The Circumcision of the EARS FIRST, then The Heart, Soul and Mind. Knowing the four skins of The Tabernacle the EVERLASTING Third Layer, White Lamb Skins turn Red as the Wetness of The Read SEE!

  • Christine says:

    Nehemiah, it says in my Scriptures, Exo. 25:37 “And you shall make seven lamps for it, and they shall mount its lamps so that they give light in front of it. Does that mean the were more then one menorah in the “Set apart Place?

  • Luis Cajigas says:

    Nehemia, it was admirable of you to rectify Hebrews 9:4 with 1 kings 8:9, and 2 Chronicles 5:10. After carefully reviewing Hebrews 9:4 with these verse I believe theres another way to rectify theses verse. Yes scriptures says that the only objects in the Ark of Testimony were the 2 tablets, But this is over 500 years after I believe, Now lets examine wht Elohim told Moses concerning the mana, In Exodus 16:24 place the Jar manna before the Ark of Testimony to be kept throughout your generation. Also the Rod of Aaron was to be place before the ark of the Tesimony. So who was in charge keep watch of these artifacts. Theres No answer. So the question why did Elohim tell Moses is to be kept for generation? The only possible answer can be, it was a TESTIMONY to be remember by Israel for generations. So if these artifact are Testimony of Elohim, what better place to put them in but in the the Ark of the TESTIMONY to kept for generation. So another questions arises where are the tqo items(Rod,Manna). We know that when the Ark of TESTIMONY was bought back to Beth-shemesh and Elohim struck down 50000 for looking inside of the Ark of the TESTIMONY. Is it possible that it could have been remove at this moment of time? Look at what 1 Kings 8:9 says, there was nothing in the Ark of Testimony nothing (accept, save, but) the two tablets. Why did the writing make a point of stressing this out? And can possible look inside with out getting Struck by Elohim other then the High Preist only? Your response would be appreciated. thank you

    • David says:

      How can a six foot staff fit in a four foot box?

      • Luis Cajigas says:

        Where in scripture does it say that the staff was six foot? or that Aharon was even that tall?

        • David says:

          Ok, make it a five foot staff in a four foot box. The diagonal in the box is just four and a half feet (if you really squeeze) which also assumes there is nothing else in the box.

          When you add the two tablets into the floor of the box, the diagonal gets even smaller. If you assume Aaron was short, and had a short staff, that also shortens his cubit making the ark that much smaller (a cubit is the length from fingertip to elbow).

          Do you think Aaron was four feet tall and carried a three foot staff?

          There is simply no room for a staff in the ark.

          • Luis Cajigas says:

            My Friend, Why should we assume that the Rod that Aaron had was 6 ft or even 5 ft, is it possible that we have been watching the Ten Commandment Movie to many times. By the way I do watch it everytime they play it. Its a walking stick it doesn’t have to equal in size to the man using it.

      • How can a mountain be moved? How is a Snake Coiled?

    • dlenegan says:

      The Temple as there are two, Solomon’s temple has differences. But a study of them is in some ways, Mind, body and soul.

      • dlenegan says:

        The seven reminds me about the church, enoch the 7th in genesis 5 between Adam to Noah, Revelation, the 7 churches, Jesus 7 parables.

  • Candy says:

    Very interesting but would have liked to have heard more from Nehemiah Gordon. I didn’t appreciate the interruptions when he would begin to talk.

  • Camber says:

    Thank you, guys, for all your discussion that enlightens us.

    Yes, news flash! The final destination of man is NOT heaven; rather, the destination of God is the earth. See the end of the story in Revelation 21:3. God’s intention from the beginning was to come to earth, after it was made holy enough for him to dwell in. We are commanded in Exodus to build a tabernacle for him to dwell in our midst, we are commanded multiple times in Leviticus to be holy, as he is holy, we are reminded by Peter to be holy and develop our holiness, and elsewhere, to grow in the knowledge and grace of Yeshua the Anointed One. This is how we become holy enough to make our world holy. And once we have done our work of constructing a Tabernacle for God, making a place suitable for him to dwell in, by spiritually purifying, “holying” the earth, then he can come down and dwell amongst us. Food for thought: the cherubim’s faces are pointed down, as their ultimate goal is downward, to transport God’s throne downward, to the earth.

    Shalom.

  • Camber says:

    Didn’t the original menorah have straight branches instead of curved? I heard that the Romans, after they conquered/destroyed Jerusalem, carried around in the streets of Rome a “new” version of the menorah, their revised version, with curved branches like the one pictured, to show they had “bent” Judaism to their power and demands and thereby conquered it. A true menorah has straight branches.

  • Janice says:

    Seems to me the ARK, is the safe, or box, the testimoney is edut, witness, or evidence, Yehova’s evidence, which was the tablets, jar of manna, the almond branch of aaron that budded. The ARK contains Yehova’s evidence.

  • Thomas Garza says:

    Nehemiah, Your comment about the Dye being derived from a Worm and used in matters of holiness evokes a question that I have not been able to remedy. I operated a Health Food Business for ten years and it was common to have clients ask if there my products were Kosher. Most Nutriceuticals don’t reveal a Rabbinic stamp/logo but the actual source of the supplement was clearly not Levitically clean, such as Mushroom Extracts, Mollusk Extracts etc. I have heard a Rabbinical OPINION stating that since the product didn’t entail eating the host, the chemical extract of the host was acceptable to consume. Can you clarify ? Thanks

  • Barbara Jayne says:

    I love listening to the three of you. Your interrupting one another, your excitement, your laughter, your differences, your common ground; and especially the pearls the interaction pulls from Yehovah’s word. Thank you.

  • Joy Mathew says:

    Shallom
    There seems to be a marked difference between the construction of the tabernacle in the wilderness and the construction of Solomon’s Temple .

    1) a) The Tabernacle in the the wilderness was made possible by the voluntary offerings of the the Israelites and the people who were redeemed from Egypt and their voluntary service for the construction of the Tabernacle . We see YHVH’s hand in the choosing of people to do his work and endowing them with special wisdom .

    b) Most of the materials of Solomon’s Temple were accumulated by King David and later accquired by King Solomon . There was conscripted labour of the Goyim that were dwelling in Israel ; A heathen King was involved in the construction of the temple and it was done for the renumeration given .

    Why this difference in approach to procuring items and the construction ?

  • Laurel Finnerty says:

    What a wonderful discussion. I just now found it in 2016 from my FB feed.
    But I’ll tell you, It all came together for me, when I read Lev. 16:14. That they were to only sprinkle the front of the atonement cover and on the ‘east’ side. That left the “west’ side clean and open for the future final atonement for the sins of all mankind. The Lamb of God, Yeshua, was sprinkled on that open west side at the time of the crucifixion. The Ark was hidden since the Babylonian exile. It was never in the 2nd Temple. No one ever knew where it was… except the Creator who place it in the appropriate site.
    It was hidden under the ground of the crucifixion site and the divine blood of Yeshua dripped down to anoint that west side. That totally brings the entire story together. It is a well documented event that was discovered by one, Ron Wyatt, in the excavation in the Garden Tomb area in the ’80’s.. Michael Rood has also told the story well so all can understand. The greatest story never told, which will one day soon to be revealed. It truly was a covert operation by the Almighty. When you understand what happened at that moment… brings the entire Bible together.

  • Lon Virgillo says:

    The contents of the Ark of the Covenant are, the 10 commandments tablets, the Rod of Aaharon/Aaron and Mana.

    • David says:

      That’s the list from Hebrews, and it is incorrect. Read 1kings8:9 & 2chron5:10. The author of Hebrews, whoever it was, got this wrong.

  • Heather Holloway says:

    Lol I had the dame apprehension Nehemiah had that there wouldn’t be much to talk about with this instructions for the Sanctuary. But wow, talk about filling in the “silence” 🙂

    Thank you for all the insights and laughs!

  • Janice says:

    This is a traveling throne of the KING, he rules from the Code of Law Under His feet; “to put your enemies under your feet”. Edut is yes, witness or evidence.

    I appreciate your brotherhood.

  • YoAv says:

    EXO 40:20 Then he took the testimony and put it into the ark, and attached the poles to the ark, and put the mercy seat on top of the ark.

    Seems to me, if the ‘wherein’ refers back to “the Holiest of all,” that places the tablets along side the Ark, with the golden pot and Aaron’s rod.

    HEB 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

    For Keith…
    Pray-tell, of which covenant does the author speak:
    HEB 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    GEN 6:18 “But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark — you and your sons and your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.

    GEN 17:7 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

    GEN 17:13 “A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

    EXO 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

    Of course, Jeremiah tells us that the “first covenant” is not passing away, but rather is being written upon man’s heart.
    JER 31:31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

    JER 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    NASB 1995

    • DBH says:

      As I understand it, the “first covenant” that is referred to is the covenant with Aaron. The book is about the priesthood and the reference is the covenant given to the Aaronic priesthood.

    • Just Someone says:

      Hey there, you fellow wisdom seekers 🙂
      First of all, to me the NT is not a very trustworthy source. Too much editing and censorship by people that do not know the ways of Jehova, but rather followed a false doctrine of Jesus. Becomes very evident especially in the book of HEB.
      How dare the author(s) to state that Jah´s EVERLASTING covenant is obsolete and even bad/wrong !? By referring to JER 31? Well, maybe he got something crucial quite wrong there, probably because of lacking knowledge regarding the Hebrew language. “brit chadascha” was translated as “new covenant”. However, “chadascha” is derived from “chadasch” which means RENEWED, not new. (chadasch is also found in Psalms 51:10 , 103: 5 , Isiah 61:4 ). This is a very crucial, yet overlooked difference in meaning. If the covenant with His people (JER 31: 33 clearly states “with the house of Israel”) was renewed, it doesn´t imply that it is obsolete at all! Rather the opposite is true, it is reenforced!
      But in which way reinforced? Well, JER 31:33 already gives the answer: “I will put my law within them and on their heart I will write it”. Why does Jah say this? Well, because He wants you to love Him with all your heart and to keep His words (Torah) within your heart (DEUT 6: 4-9). However, as we all know, Jisrael didn´t do so (interestingly, JHVH already knew they wouldn´t keep the covenant: DEUT 31: 16-30) Further, compare Isiah 29:13-14 for this matter: Although being very conservative and seemingly keeping the Torah, ancient and modern day Jews fail to do all this from their heart. It´s tradition, constructed by the Rabis and Pharisees, that perverts the true essence of the Torah – the instruction from JHVH to us humans as a key to a righteous (perfect) life – or as other people would call it: Gnosis. Isiah 58 is another very interesting reference to this context.
      That´s also the reason why the prophet Yeshua (aka Jesus) was sent. His mission was to teach the Israelites how to keep Torah and it virtues from within the heart. Unfortunately, his teachings were corrupted so that Christians think all their deeds are legit, as long as they hail Jesus´name. However, this is not correct, compare Ecclesiastes 12:13 : JHVH will judge your deeds, whether you did them in the name of Christ or not. Eventually, as long as you live in the word of the Torah, your deeds will always be righteous. That´s the only reason why JHVH gave mankind His Torah, i.e. instruction (to a righteous life). Now ask yourself: To what extent does our modern capitalistic system with all its alleged comforts comply with His word …
      Shalom

    • David says:

      Why has no one noticed that Heb9:4 puts the golden censer (golden alter of incense) inside the Holy of Holies? The golden censer is in the Holy Place before the veil. The author of Hebrews gets this wrong as well.

      Jer31:33 says the covenant will be “renewed” while Heb8:10 uses a word which means “something brand new”. The author of Hebrews also gets this wrong. To be fair, the Septuagint also gets this wrong so perhaps the author of Hebrews was quoting from the LXX.

  • Jess says:

    After I listened to this , I heard a crow out side my door saying caha, over and over for about 3min.

  • Sunshine says:

    While listening to your conversation on Terumah, you posted this funny story about Keith’s underwear on your Facebook page. You guys are so silly. Best regards from Republic of Srpska. 🙂