Hebrew Voices #63 – Reading the New Testament Through Jewish Eyes

Bible Scholar Nehemia Gordon with Dr. Brad Young

In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Reading the New Testament Through Jewish Eyes, Nehemia Gordon has the honor of speaking with one of the truly great scholars of the Hebrew and Jewish context of the New Testament. Dr. Brad Young of Oral Roberts University explains how people who believe in Yeshua of Nazareth can start to learn to read the New Testament through Jewish eyes by healing the painful wounds between Christians and Jews.

I look forward to reading your comments!

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Hebrew Voices #63 - Reading the New Testament Through Jewish Eyes

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Dr. Young: I find, you know, a lot of these people that have these negative views, maybe have never even met a Jewish person, and they haven’t really read the Scriptures through Jewish eyes.

Benjamin Netanyahu: Le ma’an Zion lo ekhesheh, u’l’ma’an Yerushalayim lo eshkot. (For Zion’s sake I will not be silent, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest. Isaiah 62:1)

Nehemia: Shalom, this is Nehemia Gordon and welcome to Hebrew Voices. In this episode I had the honor of sitting down and speaking with one of the truly great scholars of the Hebrew and Jewish context of the New Testament, Dr. Brad Young of Oral Roberts University. In this episode, we talk about how people who believe in Yeshua of Nazareth can start to learn to read the New Testament through Jewish eyes, by healing the painful wounds between Christians and Jews. Be sure to visit nehemiaswall.com for related links and further studies. Here is my conversation with Dr. Brad Young.

Nehemia: Today I'm in Afula, Israel, with Professor Brad Young of Oral Roberts University. And he has come to Israel to teach here. And Shalom, Professor Young. How are you?

Dr. Young: Very good. It's good to be with you today.

Nehemia: So, tell the audience a little bit about yourself. I know you're a Bible-believing Christian at Oral Roberts University. What are you doing here in Israel in Afula, of all places?

Dr. Young: Well, I was invited to be a guest lecturer, teacher, at the Galilee Center for Research into Judaism and Christianity.

Nehemia: And what is your position at Oral Roberts University?

Dr. Young: I'm a tenured Professor of Judaic-Christian studies in the Graduate School of Theology and Ministry at ORU. That's located in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Nehemia: Okay, so you've come from Tulsa, Oklahoma to Afula. What are you teaching at the college here?

Dr. Young: I'm teaching a course on the Jewish environment of the New Testament.

Nehemia: And there's interest here in Israel in that subject…

Dr. Young: Well, the center has brought together many students from around the world. The program at the Galilee Center has a lot of students from abroad. We had a student from Hong Kong, who's originally from Malaysia, which is unusual, of course, for someone from Malaysia to come and study. We also have a student from Kerala, India. And we have some students from the United States. We have some students from Israel as well, some from Jerusalem that came in.

Nehemia: So, this is pretty incredible. You're here in Afula and you're teaching people from around the world about the Jewish... how did you describe it?

Dr. Young: The Jewish environment and the New Testament.

Nehemia: The Jewish environment. Oh, that’s awesome, okay.

Dr. Young: And there's another section of this course that I'm not teaching, which a really tremendous scholar, Dr. Faydra Shapiro is teaching on Jewish-Christian relations today. And one of the focuses of the center is how we can improve the relationship between believing Christians, Jewish people, bringing them together for education, research, academic exchange. It’s really a tremendous program.

Nehemia: Now a week ago, I went to a lecture that you gave at the Bible Lands Museum in Jerusalem, and it was on this exact topic of Jewish-Christian relations. And I have to say, Professor Young, one of the things that really surprised me, in a good way, was that you gave the lecture in Hebrew. And I don't think I've ever encountered an American Christian scholar who actually spoke Hebrew, didn't just study the ancient text but could actually speak it. So, I was very touched by that. That was pretty amazing. You know, I wrote a book that dealt with this interfaith dialogue. It wasn't the main topic, but it dealt with it, called, "A Prayer to Our Father.”

Dr. Young: Wonderful.

Nehemia: And my father, who was an Orthodox Rabbi, of blessed memory, he read the book and at the end of reading the book, his response was, he said, “We have our thing and they have their thing.” Meaning, “The Jews, we’ve got our thing going on, the Christians...leave it alone, why talk to the Christians?” So, what would you respond to my father? Why should Jews and Christians have dialogue?

Dr. Young: Well, you know, I really understand his feeling. I think Christian listeners and others should try to appreciate the fact that Christians and Jews have been estranged from each other for 2000 years almost. And Jewish people have felt, “Well, we've been doing pretty well for 2000 years without your help. Now, what's the deal?” But I would say to your father, “The Christians today are very different from the Christians in the 1930s and in the 1950s.”

Nehemia: Before you get to that though, I think if you asked my father, of blessed memory, about this, he wouldn't say that we were doing well without you. He'd say the opposite. Every time we had dialogue we were persecuted. The dialogue that we remember in Jewish culture was, we were forced into these disputations to defend our faith.

And the example that most, at least many Jews are familiar with, is Nachmanides, who won the debate against Pablo Christiani, and his reward is that he was exiled from his home country of Spain. And the dialogue you're talking about is completely different. You're not talking about debating who's right, the Jew or the Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking about coming together on common ground. Am I right about that?

Dr. Young: That's right. Trying to understand each other and value each other. These disputations were horrible and a part of history, and a part of the persecution. And what I meant by saying that is, Jewish people have an identity. They've been able to struggle, they've been able to survive, they've been able to thrive. And it hasn't been because Christians have been helping them. It's been the actual opposite, that they've been able to survive.

Nehemia: And look, I'll still meet Christians today, they'll say, “Look, you've got to be a Christian unless you can justify why you're not.” Meaning their starting position is, “Your existence as a Jew is not valid unless you can somehow justify it,” which as a Jew makes no sense to me, and is not the groundwork for having any kind of meaningful dialogue.

Dr. Young: I think that's the reason why we really need to come together. To me, anti-Semitism with Christians is not a Jewish problem. It's a Christian problem. It's my problem, I need to deal with that. And so, it's something that we, who are leaders, educators, we're involved with our community.

We're dealing with this day by day, and we need to focus on anti-Judaism and these negative attitudes, through education and trying to bring people together. I find, you know, a lot of these people that have these negative views, maybe have never even met a Jewish person, and they haven't really read the Scriptures through Jewish eyes.

So, when we look at the New Testament in a Jewish environment, well, how can we cut Jesus off from His people? There's a very famous Seminary professor who would start his classes by saying, “The first thing you've got to do to be a good Christian is to kill the Jew inside of you.”

Nehemia: What?

Dr. Young: Can you imagine?

Nehemia: Wait, back up. What did he say?

Dr. Young: He said, “The first thing you must do to be a good Christian is to kill the Jew inside of you.”

Nehemia: Oh my, and you're not advocating that position at all, just to be clear.

Dr. Young: And his student raised her hand and said, “Do you mean Jesus?” And of course, she had the greater wisdom. And I think this is our problem today. There is this feeling of animosity, you know, everything good is in the new faith. Everything bad is in the tree that nourishes the branch. Everything bad comes from Jewish faith and practice.

And I think today we're trying to say, “You have to value Jesus' family. You have to value Jewish faith and practice today as it is, in order to understand your own faith.” But to legitimize Jewish faith and practice that every covenant... we've got covenants promised to Abraham that are called a “Brit Olam,” which is an eternal covenant. So, Apostle Paul, as he was talking about his brothers and sisters who had not embraced faith in Jesus, he said, “I would cut myself off for them.” But then he says in the next sentence, “These are Israelites.” He never said they were Israelites.

Nehemia: Okay, so you're affirming the covenant that God made with the people of Israel. And in your speech - which, again, you gave in Hebrew last week, amazing - and I think probably most of the people in the audience were Jews, which, again, is also quite amazing. So, you talked about how things have changed since the 1930s, and you’ve just mentioned that before. So, share for the audience who doesn't know, and certainly my Jewish audience has no idea. But I would bet even some of the people coming from the New Testament perspective, a lot of times people don't have an historical view of how things have changed and progressed. Like they think the way things are right now is the way they've always been. So, how have things changed since the 1930s in the Christian world, towards the Jewish people?

Dr. Young: I think in the 1930s, even in America, where Jewish people have had a lot of acceptance and success, that people would look at the word “Jew” or “Jewish” in a very negative way. And today, especially when you go to evangelical Christian churches, you know, you talk about Israel, you talk about the Jewish people, I mean, this is very positive. And, you know, I go to some churches, they're singing Hebrew songs. They're waving Israeli flags. They're singing “Hatikvah.”

Nehemia: And these are regular mainstream Sunday churches you're talking about, right?

Dr. Young: These are the major churches in the community. And some are what we would call “independent, charismatic,” they're evangelical churches. One of the things I was trying to talk about in this speech was that there's quite a difference among the Christians when we talk about evangelical Christians. And some Jewish people today - I think that's one reason why so many Israelis are interested in this talk - they see that there are a lot of supporters among evangelical Christians, and they don't quite know how to understand it.

What are the reasons? I heard a very fine academic yesterday, or the day before, we were talking at the college, and he said, “We've studied as Jews many years and done a lot of research about why you hate us. Now I'm trying to figure out why you love us…”

Nehemia: That's awesome.

Dr. Young: “…and I don't understand.” So, today we're trying to say, “Why do these Christians love us? Is this good or is it bad?” You know, it's the famous joke that Jewish people always think is funny, nobody else gets it and probably all the Jewish people hear it. You've heard the joke about the teacher that asked the students to write a composition on the elephant.

Nehemia: The elephant.

Dr. Young: The French student writes the composition about the mating habits of the elephant, and the German student writes the composition about the aggressive tendencies, and the protecting the territory of the elephant. And so, the Jewish student comes up. “What's your composition about the elephant?” And the student says, “Is the elephant good for the Jews?”

Nehemia: That is funny. Who wouldn't find that funny? That's hilarious. Look, as a small, persecuted people that is very apt, that's a very profound... Because as a Jew, I take it for granted on every issue, “How does this affect the Jews?” And you're saying, most people don't think that way in the world. That's interesting. That allows me to put my mind a little bit into the head of maybe a Christian who isn't thinking that, “How is the elephant good for the Baptist Church?”

Dr. Young: No.

Nehemia: That’s not far from the truth.

Dr. Young: And I really think Christians would not quite grasp it, but Jewish people, they know instinctively what you're talking about.

Nehemia: Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Young: Is this good for the Jews? Is it a good thing that evangelicals are positive? And there's a sense, “Can we really trust them? Is there really a basis for trust?”

Nehemia: So, you said you encountered this Israeli academic who was saying, “We've studied why you hate us.” And I think that's so much easier for us to understand as Jews than why somebody would love us. So, what is the answer? Why do you love us?

Dr. Young: Well, there's a lot of reasons. First, I'd like to say that these news reports sometimes we hear, “Oh, the evangelicals just won the battle of Armageddon. And all the Jews will convert and all this...” I don't really think that explains it. In fact, a recent book by Dr. Shapiro on Christian Zionism, which explored this, did some serious research on it. There were also some studies by Ze'ev Heifetz that I think are helpful to this.

But I would say it goes back to what's the right thing to do, and how you understand the Bible. In this talk I noted - I think not very many people realize it - but President Harry Truman was a Baptist from Missouri, from an evangelical background. And the State Department had said, “Don't vote for Israel in 1948,” and that's what he was going to do. But he had a Jewish friend, Eddie Jacobson...

Nehemia: Let me give the people the background. So, the recognition of Israel as a sovereign state went before the United Nations, and the vote of the United States was very important in that recognition. And so, Harry Truman has to make this decision. The State Department’s saying, “Don't support Israel.”

Dr. Young: Yeah, I mean, everybody in the government in America says, “Vote no. Don't recognize Israel in the partition plan.”

Nehemia: You know, I think that's hard for a lot of American Jews especially to comprehend, because we think of America as Israel's closest ally. But in 1948 it wasn't a given that America would back Israel.

Dr. Young: We've got to remember, we had received support from Saudi Arabia with oil. And we kind of got that away from the British. The British really should have had Saudi Arabia as their allies. And the State Department says, “There's no reason that this will help American interest. You should not support it.” The only reason that Russia voted to recognize Israel, because Russia voted to recognize it, is that it was the Cold War. And they were absolutely certain that America was going to vote against it.

Nehemia: Really?

Dr. Young: And so, they wanted to vote exactly the opposite of what America did.

Nehemia: So, why does Truman vote for Israel? I mean, that's a critical event in history.

Dr. Young: It's a critical thing. And I knew the daughter of Eddie Jacobson. She told her dad's story to us several times. But he was in business with Harry Truman and he prevailed upon him, “Please meet with Ezer Weitzman.” And as a personal favor, he says, “I will meet with him...”

Nehemia: And Ezer Weitzman, for those who don't know?

Dr. Young: He was the first President of Israel, and he was a very strong advocate and very educated, articulate. He was somebody that could speak about the Biblical foundation and the connection between the Bible, the Jewish people and Harry Truman's faith. And so, you know, when you think about a Baptist President, you know, maybe he's not real religious. But he went to Sunday school probably, and he had that orientation. When Ezer Weitzman came to talk, they talked for hours, and at the end he was absolutely convinced, “I've gotta vote for Israel.” When they asked him, “Why did you do this?” He said, “It's the right thing to do.”

Nehemia: Wow, even though it might not have been so much in America's interest, it was the moral and right thing to do, based on his evangelical Baptist upbringing and background.

Dr. Young: Well, historians might not say that. But I think… Because I also grew up in the Baptist Church and my grandfather was very active as a deacon. He came to Israel in 1936, which was unusual. But I remember him telling me how he traveled from Cairo to Damascus with a Jewish Rabbi as his companion, and they talked a lot. But, you know, my grandfather saw Israel as Israel. He didn't see the church as replacing Israel.

Nehemia: So, that is a key thing I want to talk about. You brought this up in the speech, you're speaking in Hebrew. And I knew this, because I've studied Christianity, but it struck me from the way you said it, that when many Christians read in the Old Testament, in what we call the Tanakh, about Israel, they say, “That's us, the church.” And what you're saying is that when evangelicals read in the Bible about Israel, they say, “That's Israel.” Is that fair?

Dr. Young: I think that's a fair generalization. But I think you have to remember that in every denomination, every church, there are replacement theologians that read themselves in there. And I think probably in every church and denomination, there are some that kind of get it right. But I think because evangelicals - let's say Baptists is one group in that group - because they take a more literal interpretation of the Scriptures and they're not just listening to the pastor or the priest interpret it to them. You know, they read, “The children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,” they see, you know, the literal children. They have to have somebody come along and tell them, “No, no, that's not them, that's us. We replaced them.”

Nehemia: So, tell us what replacement theology is. I know my Jewish listeners have no idea. I suspect some of my Christian listeners have no idea, either. What is replacement theology?

Dr. Young: Well, replacement theology goes back very early in Christianity. Sometimes, it was fashioned in the question of the Verus Israel, who is the true Israel?

Nehemia: When you say "very early,” what century are we talking?

Dr. Young: Well, I think we see it very strong in the 4th century with John Chrysostom in Alexandria, where we had Jewish people and Christians praying together. But I really would trace it to the Book of Romans, because Paul warned in Romans 9, 10 and 11 that “some of you are filled with arrogance. And you say, these branches were cut off, we've replaced you.”

And he warned against pride and arrogance. And he says, “It's the root that nourishes you, and you're cutting yourself off of a tree you've been grafted in.” You know what happens when you cut off yourself from the branch you're sitting on? That's a danger. You're gonna hit the ground pretty fast. But because, I think, already in Rome in this congregation that Paul actually didn't know very well, they were beginning with this teaching. Now, I think in the 4th century it became very strong with this great leader that was highly esteemed in the church. He was a great preacher and teacher. But it bothered him that some Christians were praying in the synagogue with Jewish friends.

Nehemia: Okay, so hold on. So, replacement theology is basically the idea that the Christians replaced Israel in that eternal covenant that God had with Israel, is that right?

Dr. Young: It's like I'm sitting in your place. I throw you out of your chair and I sit down, and you have been rejected by God. And your status, your privileges, your promises have been transferred. And so, how they will justify this, they say, “The covenants are eternal and they're being maintained, but they're given to the new people of God, the true Israel.”

Nehemia: So, the Jews are no longer God's people. Now the Christians are God's people. That's the idea of replacement theology, right?

Dr. Young: And the idea is that you are the Israel, the Christian is the Israel. So, every time they read "Israel" or "the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" they say, “Well, that's us.”

Nehemia: Okay, gotcha.

Dr. Young: They’re putting their name in the place.

Nehemia: And you're saying this goes back to the 1st century to Rome. And Paul comes out against it in the Book of Romans.

Dr. Young: He comes out slugging, he's fighting mad. He says, “The gifts and callings of God are without repentance.” In the old King James it means, “they cannot be revoked.”

Nehemia: Preach it!

Dr. Young: “Have they stumbled so as to fall into ruin?” He says, “My anointed, may it never be, heaven forbid it. Heaven won't let that happen.”

Nehemia: So, Paul is preaching against this... And what is that, around the year 40 or 50 he wrote that Epistle?

Dr. Young: 56, a lot of people look at it.

Nehemia: 56. I love scholars of the New Testament. We'll talk about, I don't know, the Book of Kings, you know, it'll be sometime in the 6th century BC or 5th. And in 56, in 56 he writes this Epistle to the Romans.

Dr. Young: Well, you know, it's nice. We have a few things like an inscription and dates that we know, and certain things that happened in their life, in Paul. You know, you get a little bit of a feel for it.

Nehemia: So, he writes this letter in 56. And as early as 56, there were people in the church in Rome, who were saying, “We're Israel. It's no longer the Jews.” And you're saying, now jump forward to John Chrysostom in the 4th century. Is this after the Council of Nicaea, John Chrysostom?

Dr. Young: Oh, yes, yes.

Nehemia: So, it's after the Council of Nicaea, and there are Christians who are praying together with Jews in the synagogue? Is that what you're telling me, in the 4th century?

Dr. Young: Yes.

Nehemia: And this bothers him.

Dr. Young: Oh, yes.

Nehemia: So, how does he come out against this, Jews praying with Christians, Christians praying with Jews?

Dr. Young: Well, it's a vitriolic, vicious attack, don't be with the Jews, and some of the things that are very unfortunate. I mean, I think today in this different relationship… I mean, I think it's wonderful when I can take a group of students and I try to call ahead, talk to the Rabbi, “Is there a time that would be good?” You know, and work with the schedule of the local Synagogue, and the students love it. We often have a dinner with the Rabbi.

Nehemia: This is from Oral Roberts University, you're talking about?

Dr. Young: Yes. So, since I'm a Professor of Judaic-Christian studies and we value the Jewish roots of Christian faith, I can teach the ancient Judaism. I mean, I really studied from about 200 BC to 600 AD and try to have all those sources. But I always feel that Christians need to encounter Jewish people who believe their faith and live their faith today.

So, we do what we can to maybe have an outside guest speaker come, or go to the Jewish Museum. We have a wonderful Holocaust Museum in Tulsa, and it also incorporates archaeology. The whole museum is not dedicated to the Shoah, but that's an important part…

Nehemia: Part of the museum.

Dr. Young: Yeah, but we try, you know, give those types of experiences. We have a lot of international students, and some of our students have never met a Jewish individual. So, when they get to go to the Synagogue and meet the Rabbi and hear the dvar Torah, words from the portion of the Scriptures that are being read that week from the five books of Moses, that's a great blessing to them. And so, there's a great enrichment for them to have that opportunity. But I think, at the time of...Here in Alexandria, isn't this wonderful? That's exactly what the Book of Acts said...

Nehemia: Wait, wait. So, Alexandria, we’re now back in John Chrysostom.

Dr. Young: Now, we're going back to John Chrysostom.

Nehemia: So, I want to understand the mind of one of those Christians who comes and prays in the synagogue that John Chrysostom was opposed to. What were these Christians like in the 4th century, who were going to the Jewish Synagogue, which enraged John Chrysostom?

Dr. Young: Our information is not complete.

Nehemia: And they were coming on Shabbat, right?

Dr. Young: Right, but I would say, if I would go back to the writings of the New Testament itself, when they had the Apostolic Council in the Book of Acts, one of the...

Nehemia: This is like Acts 15, Acts 21?

Dr. Young: Acts 15. I mean, there was a great emphasis, we're going to ask those who are believing in Jesus from a non-Jewish background, they've got to do some basic ethical things. Basically, they're going to avoid idolatry and live a moral, ethical life. But it says very clearly, and maybe they should learn more when they go to the Synagogue, that’s what Moses preached every Shabbat. And they will learn all about it. It was almost assumed that all these people would want to study in the Synagogue and to learn. I can see why in the 4th century there would be Christians, if they just read the New Testament. Now, we don't know how many New Testaments there were and, of course, they didn't have bound Bibles. It's a lot different situation.

Nehemia: All right, I want to look at this verse that you quoted from the Book of Acts. You call this the “Apostolic Council,” just for reference, okay. So, they're asking the question, “Is it necessary to be...” Here, it's Acts 15:21. “For in every city for generations past, Moses has had those who proclaim him, for he has been read aloud every Sabbath in the synagogues.” And look, that's the tradition I grew up with, that you go to Shul, to the Synagogue on Shabbat, and they read from the Torah. And in my Synagogue, they read it throughout the course of a year in 54 sections.

I was just in a Synagogue recently in Ohio where they do the three-year cycle. So, there are different ways of doing it, but they're reading the Torah every week. And you're saying...because I think a lot of Christians, correct me if I'm wrong, when they read this, they're saying, “Here are the things that the Gentile believer needs to do. And we don't need to worry about Moses, he's read in the synagogue.” It's almost like they're dismissing the Torah, because that's being read by the Jews in the Synagogue. That's the impression I get from a lot of Christians I interact with.

Dr. Young: Well, I think they're absolutely wrong. I think another reading that I see more that we discuss is that, well, you know, for James who’s kind of reaching this compromise, he's retreating a little bit from his previous position that the non-Jews should be circumcised and keep the whole law of Moses. In other words, conversion to Judaism, complete conversion, would be required before someone could be welcomed into the fellowship of the early Christian movement to become a Christian.

And what they decided after much debate, is that, “No, we will kind of give them another status.” Some would call it maybe a summary of the laws for the children of Noah or, you know, kind of the universal moral, ethical laws. Sometimes, we see maybe even a different status for a ger toshav, a resident alien. Usually, the ger toshav has a higher requirement than what we see here.

But if you would study in the ancient literature, what are the sins that led up to the flood, like in the Book of Jubilees and even, you know, some texts of the Rabbinic literature will list idolatry, murder, and chastity, some types of sexual sins, all of this got so bad. Well, when there's a new covenant made with all of humanity, not just the children of Israel, when we go to the 10 Commandments on Mount Sinai, I mean, these are wonderful laws for all people of all time.

But it was more of a covenant with the Children of Israel, whereas the sons of Noah was universal. So, it seems like in the Synagogue, this was a theory that David Flusser, Shmuel Safrai, my teachers developed. They wrote a wonderful article about it in German and later it was published in English, and it's available online at the Jerusalem Perspectives website.

Nehemia: We'll put a link to that on the website.

Dr. Young: But it’ll be a good link to the Jerusalem Perspective, they have some wonderful articles there. But there they said, “These are God fearers.”

Nehemia: And God fearers was a status in Judaism at that time, which maybe isn't exactly mentioned in the Old Testament, in the Tanakh. But there was such a thing as people who, in the Roman Empire said, “Look, I'm 60. I'm not getting circumcised, that'll kill me. What can I do and still show up in the Synagogue and not be treated like a foreigner?” And that was the God fearer status that you're talking about. Now, that's very interesting. So, you're saying in the 4th century, these Christians in Alexandria are going to the synagogue because whether they read it in Acts or somebody remembered, they had this idea of not just…

Dr. Young: We don't have direct information, but it seems like that's possible.

Nehemia: But clearly it says, “Moses has had those who proclaim him for he has been read aloud every Sabbath in the synagogues.” And they took that to mean, “Okay, let's go to the Synagogue.” And John Chrysostom hears this, and he says, “This is not good.” So, why was he opposed to that in the 4th century in Alexandria?

Dr. Young: Sometimes there's this sense of animosity toward the mother faith that's given birth to this child. If you're going to be independent, you have to show that you're different. And this is something we study a lot as we look at the origins of Christianity; where there was a parting of the ways? Some scholars look at it in 70 AD, at the destruction of the Temple, where a parting of the ways happened between the Jewish community and the Christian community. I kind of think it really was more intense later during the second revolt. I think we still see Christians and Jews associating with each other, that Christianity was considered more of a Jewish sect. Now, when we come to…

Nehemia: Let's stop there for a second. In 132 to 135, we have the Bar Kokhba revolt in Israel against the Romans. And you're saying, up until then, Christians, or people who believed in Jesus, were simply a Jewish sect. They wouldn't have thought of themselves as non-Jews, is that what you're saying?

Dr. Young: Yeah, why would they see themselves as another? The Talmud says there were 24 different groups leading up to Titus and Vespasian.

Nehemia: Meaning in the late Second Temple period there were 24 Jewish denominations or factions.

Dr. Young: And of course, we've just finished commemorating Tisha B'Av here in Israel, such an important commemoration.

Nehemia: Of the destruction of the First and Second Temple.

Dr. Young: The ninth day of the month called “Av” in Hebrew of the Jewish calendar, when the First Temple and the Second Temple were destroyed, even being traced back to the evil report of the spies who said, “We cannot take the land.” And so, you know, this is this horrific day.

And we think about how that was caused because of groundless hatred. There are several reasons, but sin'at khinam. And I think today we want to talk about unconditional love. How can we bring Christians and Jews back together? I say, Nehemia, sometimes it's like we're trying to remarry a divorced couple. Now really, you know, I don't think Christians and Jews need to be married. I mean, Jews are going to be Jews, Christians are going to be Christians. But we should learn to love and esteem one another, learn from one another.

And there's a lot of issues that we could partner together to help one another, so that we could grow. Now, my own spiritual life as a Bible-believing Christian, as one that came to Israel in 1972 and then continued studying and worked in this field, my life has been greatly enriched by learning from Jewish scholars, even those that didn't believe in Jesus. I remember, one Christian friend one time asked me, “What do you think you can learn from a Jew about Jesus?” And I was thinking, “You know absolutely nothing about Jesus, because you don't know anything about His faith, His family.”

Nehemia: Wait, wow, wow. So, you said to the Christian, “You know nothing about Jesus because you don't understand his Jewish context.” Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Young: Right.

Nehemia: So, for a Christian to truly understand Jesus, he needs to understand the Jewish background that Jesus was part of…

Dr. Young: Yeah, you know, a very important statement was made by Pope John Paul II in 1980. He made this amazing statement. He said, “Whoever meets Jesus meets Judaism.”

Nehemia: Wow.

Dr. Young: I would argue that Jesus brought ethical monotheism to the world through Jesus. And so, as Christians come to faith in the Jewish Jesus, they have to say, “You don't cancel the faith of Jesus by faith in Jesus. But the faith in Jesus should lead you to honor and respect the faith of Jesus, His family and His heritage.”

Nehemia: Which is the Jews. So, this brings us to something you brought up in your talk in Jerusalem at the Bible Lands Museum, where you quoted Reverend Jeremiah Wright, who had been Obama's Pastor for 20-plus years. And you made the statement that, according to him, Jesus wasn't a Jew, He was a Palestinian. And I had to go look this up, and it was actually even worse than what you said.

Dr. Young: Oh, it's a lot worse.

Nehemia: It's unbelievable. He's giving a speech and he's saying, “These Europeans,” meaning the Jews, “Stole the land from the Palestinians. And this goes back to the time of the Book of Judges.” I'm gonna post this video or link to the video on the website, as well. People, you've gotta see this to believe it, what he's saying there.

So basically, he's saying Jesus was a Palestinian. These Jews are just Europeans who have stolen the Palestinian land going back 3,400 years. Wow. And you're talking about a very different perspective. Your Christianity is not the Christianity of Jeremiah Wright. In other words, you see Jesus as a Jew, and in order to truly understand your Jesus, you need to have the faith in Jesus, I love that phrase. You need to understand the faith of Jesus, which isn't Palestinianism, it's Judaism, right?

Dr. Young: Oh, of course. I mean, this is an indisputable fact of history.

Nehemia: That doesn’t bother Jeremiah Wright.

Dr. Young: Let me say, Nehemia, I think I can say, I'm for liberation theology, I'm for social justice theology. But the way we see liberation theology preached sometimes like, “Well, the Jewish people are a colonial power, oppressing the Palestinians.” How can you be a colonial power in your own land? That's impossible. How can you occupy land that belongs to you?

Israel has done so much to try to make peace. And I think today, really what we should be talking about is better education. There needs to be an understanding within the Palestinian Arab community of Jews and their background. And I think through education, we can build a better foundation for true and lasting peace and reconciliation.

And I think there's a lot of, you know, just on the local level, if you can get away from all the politicians, probably many Palestinian Muslim Arabs and Israelis have some connections, maybe even like each other. And there are some things that separate us. But when you start preaching untruths, you say “Jesus was a Palestinian” and “the Palestinians were here first in the Book of Judges,” I mean, there's no way to connect that through the Bible or through any type of...

Nehemia: I guess he’s trying to say, the Palestinians are Canaanites, and the Israelites came and stole the land from the Canaanites. That's what he seems to be saying.

Dr. Young: We hear this in some of the kind of propaganda that’s been taught in UNESCO.

Nehemia: Which is bizarre to me, because the most common Palestinian surname is “Al Masri,” “the Egyptian.” And there was a Palestinian village up until 1967 or maybe 1948 called “Colonia,” which was a Roman colony of retired veterans who had destroyed the Temple in 70. So, for them to say they're the indigenous population is bizarre to me.

You made the statement that anti-Semitic - I might be paraphrasing, so you'll correct me - you said anti-Semitic Christian theology needs to be changed through education and research. As a Professor at Oral Roberts University, can you talk about that?

Dr. Young: It is very alarming when we start looking at church history, where there has been an animosity and sometimes anti-Semitic theology that it's impacted our Bible translation, our theology, the teachings of the church. And so, it's really wonderful where we see some changes. You know, when you look at the important decision made under the leadership of this tremendous leader, Pope John 23rd with Nostra Aetate and the Catholic Church in 1965, over 50 years ago, basically it said, you know, “We can't accuse Jewish people of this time and all time of deicide, of having killed Jesus. We have to affirm the Biblical covenants. We've got to encourage interaction and study between Christians and Jews.” And there's a lot of other facets of that.

Nehemia: And you're saying this is a wonderful teaching, even though you're not a Catholic. You're, as you described, a Bible-believing Christian. And by the way, in my book, “A Prayer to Our Father,” Keith Johnson and I, we talk about this Nostra Aetate as really an important step for Jews and Christians in having a dialogue.

And I think I want to just clarify here. So, according to official Christian doctrine, whether you are Protestant or Catholic, before this, let's say back in the 1930s, Jews were officially cursed because they killed Jesus. And what you said, I loved this in the speech, is that when the evangelical Christian today looks at the Jews, he sees them as a blessed people, which is a radical departure in 70 years, 80 years.

Dr. Young: It’s a total, complete transformation. I had an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi friend say to me the other day, that it's a miracle. It just couldn't be that in 60 years, the image and the understanding of a Jew has been completely changed within Christians.

I've got to be honest, I wish that was really the case. I think we've come a long way and we've got a long way to go. And I really admire what happened in that church. But you've got to remember, one thing I was trying to say is that the Catholics don't impact all Christian denominations. And, you know, when you have a hierarchy of an Episcopal leadership where the Pope, of course, is in charge, well, you know, you can have this council, and the Papal decree has a lot of influence. It still takes years and years for it to get into the churches, into the people.

On the other hand, when we talk about evangelicals where you have a different leadership, sometimes a congregational leadership, sometimes a very important Pastor has a lot of power. In a way, really what you've got are thousands and thousands of popes that you have to deal with, instead of, one Pope says something, well, all the other Priests are going to accept it.

Nehemia: Meaning that each non-denominational church is basically its own denomination, and each maybe independent Baptist, is, he calls… But the point here is that you're saying this isn't all Christians who have made the shift. But for many Christians, for the Christians who we may encounter as loving Israel, the explanation for that is they're no longer looking at Israel as cursed but as blessed. And that's, I think, now the basis for some really great cooperation and dialogue, because if you come to us and say, “You're cursed, you shouldn't exist...

And it's interesting, I've studied in history where, I think it was who they call St. Augustine, and he talks about Jewish service, which could be understood as Jewish servitude. And he's trying to justify in the Roman Empire, “Why don't we wipe out the Jews? We have the physical power to do it.” And he comes up with this doctrine. “No, the Jews serve a purpose.” And the purpose at that time was, we want to go to the pagans and say, “Jesus fulfilled all these ancient prophecies.” Well, the pagans will say, “Show us these prophecies.” “Well, the Jews are living proof that the prophecies are true,” meaning they preserved those books. And the pagans at the time, they respected the Jews as preserving ancient books, they were known for that, ancient prophecies.

But that Jewish service devolved in Europe into Jewish servitude, slavery. Basically, the purpose of the Jew was to serve the local monarch or prince as his personal property, virtually. And now, we're getting to the point where the Jews are no longer cursed with this servitude. Now, many Christians are looking at Jews as blessed. And for me, it was a blessing to have a chance to sit down with you. We didn't even get to talk about your book, Professor Young, which I'm holding here, which is called “Jesus, the Jewish Theologian.” Guys, this is an amazing book. I read this years ago, and I reread it earlier this week. And it's really a powerful part of a series of studies you've done as a continuation of what Professor David Flusser, of the Hebrew University did. You were his disciple.

I'm hoping we can get together again and have a continuation of this discussion and actually talk about “Jesus, the Jewish Theologian,” and some of the discoveries you made and that Professor Flusser made. Would you come back and speak with us again?

Dr. Young: I'd be delighted.

Nehemia: Wonderful. Now, I gotta tell the people, we were sitting here in the place where you're staying in Afula. And as I was setting up the microphone, you spontaneously started to recite the Lord's prayer in Hebrew. Would you please end with prayer by praying this prayer, the Our Father prayer that Yeshua of Nazareth taught to the Jewish multitudes, not far from here?

Dr. Young: Yes, I think many would know the words, beautiful in Hebrew. Avinu shebashamayim, yitkadesh shimkha, tamlikh malkhutkha, veyeaseh retzonkha shebashamayim uva'aretz. et lekhem khukenu tein lanu hayom, umkhol lanu et khovotenu ka'asher makhalnu gam anakhnu lekhayavenu. Ve'al tavi'enu liydey nisayon, ela tatzilenu min hara, velekha hamamlakha vehagevura vehatif’eret le’olmey olamim. Amen.

Nehemia: Amen.

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CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
03:52 Why Jews and Christians should dialogue
09:04 How the Christian attitude towards Jews has changed
12:42 Christian Zionism
16:12 Did the Christians replace Israel
20:50 Christians praying with Jews
24:33 Should Christians follow the Torah
27:58 When did the divide between Christians and Jews begin
30:58 What one can learn from a Jew about Jesus
32:23 Was Jesus a Palestinian
35:29 Christians and Anti-Semitism
39:44 Conclusion

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Jesus the Jewish Theologian by Brad Young

Show Notes:
Dr. Brad Young
Ze’ev Chafetz
David Flusser
Dr. Faydra Shapiro
Jerusalem Perspective Article About God-Fearers

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  • shell says:

    Im glad hes against the replacement theology, but i dont know how you can read romans, basically all of it, and not see that in the plain meaning paul is pushing the idea that pauls god is done with the jews and doing this new thing with the gentiles. It is replacement theology, except that when they adopt this “law of faith” in pauls jesus that pauls god will graft them in again, and only then. So its more replacing the laws, and specifically the covenants of God which by default replaces israel. i was gonna put down some passages, but the whole book is just a big web of setups, alterations of scripture and dissolving of laws, and its impossible to expose it in 2 or 3 lines

    As for acts 15, i personally doubt acts, that james actually said that the gentiles, these strangers who are joining themselves to the God of israel, would not have to keep the law, seeing as how james own brother said: Mat 5: v17. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law…”

    I might object to his understandings, but i do appreciate what this man is trying to do. I think its pretty clear that his heart is in the right place, and i have to remind myself how important that is to God

  • daniel says:

    I found a wonderful book in the public library 15+ years ago; “The Gospel According To Moses: What My Jewish Friends Taught Me About Jesus”, by Athol Dickson. I highly recommend it.

  • Rebekah Berry says:

    Congrats on the Doctorate!!!!! WoooHooo!

  • ScottinTexas says:

    Awesome discussion that only scratches the surface. Nehemia, excuse me, Dr. Gordon, you must have more of these, maybe a series, if Dr. Young will agree to it.

    I hope you guys will not only discuss more about “Jesus,” bit really go back to help listeners understand the whole story. By this I mean, the kingdom divided, the divorce of the northern kingdom (Israel), how that impacts matters today when people are returning and are not all Jews (from the tribe of Judah, or Benjamin), but from the ten northern tribes who ere scattered and mixed with gentile peoples around the globe. There is very little appreciation and understanding of this, but it is growing.

    In my view (and my knowledge pales to yours and your guest’s), there is a whole ‘nother (sorry, from Texas, so you’ll get it Nehemia) story and lesson in understanding the rest of the story. It is just presumed bc of the difficulty, if not impossibility of identifying members of the northern tribes, that these people are not distinct from Jews, that is members of the southern kingdom aka tribe of Judah.

    This understanding begins by translating and parsing words accurately. Jews are members of the tribe of Judah, but have come to be known as anyone who is Hebrew, thereby neglecting the other tribes, each with a distinctive purpose in God’s plan. We may not always know, but He does! For example, if you are going to be a priest, you better be a Levite, not a Jew or Asherite or Naftali, etc. We must begin, again, to respect these subtle distinctions that Tanakh makes that has been lost over time, but will again serve God’s purpose.

    Thanks again for all you do Drs. Gordon and Young!

  • Mike says:

    It’s interesting listening to all the different Christian perspectives and denominational doctrines that put Christianity all over the place. Its amazing how reading the bible ones self without being taught an interpretation but coming to understand brings a truth and clarity you nearly never hear otherwise.
    People shouldn’t be rejecting faith; they should be looking for the truth. This is why I am here without bringing denominational baggage.

    Shalom

  • Lauran-Daniel Herdien says:

    Thank you for all the effort you put into all this information you make available to us.

  • William Bosko says:

    I really appreciate your teachings and how excited you get when you study. I appreciate you and your studies in the true Bible knowledge. Our world is into false teachings and even churches have no idea how Satan has destroyed the truth of the Bible.

  • Catherine Ozment says:

    This has been in my heart for thirty years. I was raised Missouri synod Lutheran where you just didn’t question too awfully much. Thirty years ago I started my own study and have been an on again off again student. I have found myself frustrated more than not as I feel sometimes the roots of Christianity run so deep, the relearning is as if I have to convince myself the sky is purple instead of blue. It is refreshing to have teachers who are committed to closing the gap between Christianity and Jewish roots.

  • Gregory Irby says:

    I’m from Saint Louis Missouri / USA. Unfortunately I still see a lot of anti Semitic attitude among the general public, Christian or not. Society in general, here and world wide is rapidly becoming atheistic and haters of people of any kind of faith. (They think we’re stupid)
    However, for Christians who would like to have a better understanding of the Bible from a Jewish perspective, I know of an app that can help. I use a Free Bible app on my phone called “You Version” . It has 60 English translations and among them there are 3 Jewish versions in English. The Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB), Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) and the World Messianic Bible British Edition (WMBBE). Free from the Google Play Store. A well designed app. You can book mark, high light (with all the colours of the rainbow) and annotate notes. it has a compare button and you choose which and how many versions to compare. It also supports many languages. This app has too many features to list here. I was surprised to find these versions closely matched passages in Hebrew Mathew that you taught on Nehemia. This app is less than 45 MB installed and I have several Bibles downloaded to the SD card (1.5 MB each / it lets you do that) It works offline and they have audio and many videos online. A truly Excellent App. I can see that I’m going to have to study the Hebrew language to get a deeper and better understanding of God’s word.
    From reading Organic Gardening Magazines I discovered that; it has been found out that if one keeps composting the soil for several years, after awhile plants get to where they won’t grow well. Even though the soil has been enriched year after year. It seems something about the microbes in the soil get out of wack. THEY RECOMMEND LETTING THE SOIL REST FOR A SEASON! That seems to fix the problem! So… I came to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to let the soil rest every 7th year, no matter what religion you are or where you live. There is no one wiser that the living God! I find it interesting he doesn’t tell us why. You’ll find out why not,… eventually. Shalom friends! ✡️

  • Gregory Warren says:

    Enjoyed and learned some interesting perspectives. Could you explain the pardes in detail? You touched on Drash and left me hoping it would lead to a more detailed understanding of P,R & Sod. I know you think this is like “the sky is blue”, but I think you would get a good response and we might gain some valuable insights from how this concept originated in Hebrew thought.

  • dale says:

    i did not know that there were jews still using the triennial torah cycle. what type of synagogue was that in ohio?

  • Josué says:

    I think I have heard this podcast around 15 times already. Am I the only weird one? LOL
    This was awesome!!!

  • Jeanette says:

    Nehemia thanks for Nehemia’s Wall! I’ Each time I hear the podcasts I learn new things. This one was awesome.

    May YeHoVaH keep blessing you!

  • Dave Kimble says:

    We thank you, Nehemia, for making Mr. Young available to share his insights. Bonnie and I appreciate and enjoyed his insights and wisdom. Bless God for opening our hearts and minds to these truths and Dr.Young’s confirmations, from a main stream christian university, with historical examples. It gives us hope that the church may be waking.

    Gal 3:27-28 “For as many of you as were baptized into Messiah have put on Messiah.There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Yeshua Messiah. ”

    Where is there room in these to make claims of the church being the new Israel?
    What point is trying to question who is part of lost tribes or better heritage? How is Jewish identity dismisable from any of Messiah’s teaching? “Heaven forbid!”

  • David Gregory says:

    Replacement theology is insidious, I agree. However, I disagree that we as Gentiles have been grafted into Yisrael. I believe the root is Yehovah, and we, Gentiles, have been grafted into Him. We are included in the promise that Yehovah made to Adam and Noah, as is Yisrael, but Yehovah’s promise to Yisrael is to them, and that promise is that they will administrate Yehovah’s blessing to the Gentiles with Yeshua ha’Mashiach as their King.

    However, where the Gentile fits right now is that Yehovah has revealed the truth of His Mashiach to Yisrael, yet because they have rejected Yeshua, and by extension Yehovah as well, Yehovah is rousing Yisrael to jealousy by also being kind to the Gentile in the midst of His discipline of Yisrael. This is Deuteronomy 32 at work, and how Paul commented on this situation in Romans 9-11.

    Yisrael understands what the promise is, but they have rejected the way that Yehovah is working it out. They have been hardened by Yehovah’s words the same way that Yeshua’s disciples were hardened and therefore crestfallen when Yeshua was crucified. They knew the promises of Yehovah, but they would not recognize the way it was to be worked out through the life and crucifixion of Ha-Mashiach, and by extension, the lives and crucixions of His disciples until the day Yeshua returns.

  • UKJ says:

    This has been an excellent interview . Thank you!

    The miracle of the resurrection is a major part of the belief in Yeshua being the Messiah (to come) , as a dead Messiah without the resurrection would in no way be worth the endurance of persecutions.

    In my understanding of scripture, Yeshua had been sent to the lost sheep of the “House of Israel”.

    And if the “House of Israel” can be saved in this New Covenant – pictured by Jeremiah – can Adam and Eve not be grafted in too ?

    Is Yehovah not the God of all people?

    And if “all humans” fall short of or miss the mark , why have we and do we argue so much anyway ?

    • David Gregory says:

      Yehovah is the God of all people, but the New Covenant is for the house of Yisrael. The New Covenant is for them so that they may administrate the blessing of Yehovah to all nations, the promise originally given in Genesis 3.

      Gentiles are not grafted in to the New Covenant; we are grafted into Yehovah after having gone astray to foreign gods who ought not be worshiped as God.

      • UKJ says:

        Hi David,

        Thoughtful and interesting reply. Thank you!

        You may be correct in your understanding that the New Covenant described in the book of Jeremiah may be more in line of Yehovah preparing his example nation Israel.

        My hope and understanding is that Yeshua had been prepared for the role to be the Messiah (to come) while on earth . This preparation included the temptation in the wilderness. Interestingly, he fasted 40 days (a day for each year the Israelites wandered in the wilderness?)

        Yeshua qualified himself !

        And as you said “we are grafted into Yehovah after having gone astray to foreign gods who ought not be worshiped as God.”

        In my understanding this is possible because Yeshua has become our blood brother , high priest , has prevailed, and is qualified to make intercession for all of us !

        Yeshua did say : “In my Fathers house are many mansions” …

  • Raymond Arseneau says:

    Great program, that Professor essentially echos my opinion.

    1st century believers were true followers of יהוח and Yeshua as messiah the rest of history is certainly christianity from a Goyim point of view and a drift on many points which are anti-semitic. The Goyim owe a debt to the Jewish people for having given them their Messiah, and His/their God.

    When He raised from the dead Yeshua said “I am going back to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

    So how can you be anti-semetic as a true follower of Yeshua?
    It makes no sense whatsoever.

  • Sub-titles would have been nice, the prof’s voice was a bit “raspy”.

    There are such systemic failures in both “christianity” and “judaism”. If the Jews were faithful to the precepts of Moses, and the Christians were faithful to the precepts of Yahshua, they would end up in the same spiritual and ethical place. This may be most lucidly explained by Yahshua’s parable of the vineyard, in which he casts himself in the role of the last of, and a special prophet, with essentially the same mission as the rest of the prophets, except having more authority and a closer relation to the master YHWH.

    This said, I see Jews converting to Catholicism, and Christians converting to Rabbanism, as equally troubling. All just need to return to THE faith; and yes, there is only one.

    Like the prof told the stories about the elephant. Many stories, but it was the same elephant.

  • pilgrim777 says:

    Thank you Nehemia for this very insightful interview, although I am wondering why in your discussion, there is no mention of the Christians being the descendant of the 10 lost tribes of Israel. Isn’t this knowledge a very important part of the puzzle to understand how the Jewish people comprised of the the tribe of Judah, some benjamites and levites are indeed part of the greater family of Israel when reunited with the 10 other tribes, the Christians? the Jews and the Christians together are ISRAEL, the people of God, and both the Tanak and the New Testament are prophesying a greater exodus back to the Holy Land of a reunited people of Israel. This is the reason why in these end time, Jews and Christians are increasingly coming together in fellowship.

  • Brenna says:

    Oh my! What a wonderful perspective. What a great voice for we believers in Yeshua and the great importance of his heritage and history. We have missed so much growing up in the church.
    The Jewish people have such great knowledge of the Torah, we want that as well!!!!!!!!
    Thanks to both of you for sharing your knowledge with those of us who are thirsty for more. Blessings to you and yours.

  • bigfaithgirl says:

    Thank you for having him on. After I graduated from Bible school(2000) I set out to learn the “Jewish” side on my own. I was pointed in the right direction from a friend who pointed to you. Thank you for teaching me the “Jewish side of the New Testament and understanding the Torah better. Thank you for changing my life.

  • I believe more and more Christians are realizing that we are grafted into the vine and Yehovah is the Father of the Jew first and then the Gentile. When Dr. Young prayed the Lorfd’s prayer in Hebrew it brought tears to my eyes! Thank you for this interview Nehemia. I can’t wait to hear more!

  • Shameeka says:

    This was absolutely wonderful!!!! It’s interesting to me to recognize that the majority of the history of my faith including the name of my own Messiah I have learned from you Nehemia. I would assert that many of us don’t know the history of our faith. It is a blessing that you teach because so many of us benefit from your research. This episode was AWESOME! I absolutely agree that the first Christians were Jews. It only makes sense that they didn’t leave their foundation and culture and family. There was a difference in beliefs after Yeshua died where some believe that the Messiah has come instead of will come. But they were still Jews. Christianity has transformed itself into something totally different than the original model. I am so happy to learn more and more each day. We are seeing a time, now, that many are starting to accept and embrace our roots. So awesome!

    Shalom! 🙂

    • Judy Becker says:

      When it is said that the first Christians were Jews, apparently the term “first Christians” is a bit narrow. “Christian” was first applied to the followers at Antioch, while the term “The Way” was often applied before that. But before Yeshua was crucified, there were quite a few Gentiles who followed him. As a Christian, I thoroughly reject Replacement Theology, because Paul is quite clear that we are not of the natural tree, but have been grafted in through Yeshua, and have become accepted by YeHoVaH through our saving belief in Yeshua. I, too, look forward to hearing more from Dr. Young.

  • Roxanne Arkie says:

    Above referencing J Wright.

  • Pamela says:

    That was wonderful! Get him back quickly, Nehemiah! Shalom.