Hebrew Voices #7 – Orthodox Jew Who Sights the New Moon

Orthodox Jew Who Sights the New Moon, Hebrew, hoffman, calendar, software Orthodox Jew, Jew, Judaism, New Moon, Crescent, sighting, Chemistry, Scientist, Science, Rosh Chodesh, Maimonodes, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Teruah, Archeo-astronomy, Sanhedrin

In this episode of Hebrew Voices, Orthodox Jew Who Sights the New Moon, Nehemia Gordon delves deep into Rosh Chodesh with Dr. Roy Hoffman, founder of the Israeli New Moon Society. From Moses, to Hillel the Younger, to Maimonides, Hoffman explains Orthodox perspectives related to sightings of the new moon.  Hoffman also introduces LunaCal, a free software application he developed to calculate when and where the new moon is most lightly to be visible.

Dr. Hoffman explains intricacies of new moon terminology and calculations, the difference between a sighting calendar and a calculated calendar, the role of the Sanhedrin, the creation of calendars through the centuries, and how new moon sightings relate to the practice of Jews in the Diaspora observing holidays for two days instead of one.

Though Gordon and Hoffman hold differing views on when to observe Rosh Chodesh today, they close on common ground—looking forward to the time when the calendar is perfected under the reign of the King Messiah.

I look forward to reading your comments!

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Transcript

Hebrew Voices #7 – Orthodox Jew Who Sights the New Moon

You are listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: Shalom, this is Nehemia Gordon with Hebrew Voices. I am at the Edmond Safra Campus of the Hebrew University at Givat Ram. I'm here with Dr. Roy Hoffman, who has a PhD in chemistry, and he is an Orthodox Jew who's the founder of the Israeli New Moon Society. I'm here to talk to him about the Israeli New Moon Society and the Orthodox Jewish interest and perspective on sightings of the new moon. Shalom, Dr. Hoffman.

Dr. Hoffman: Shalom.

Nehemia: Can you tell us a little bit about this organization that you founded, the Israeli New Moon Society?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, this organization was founded in 1988 at the request of Rabbi Nahum Rabinovitch, who's the head of the Ma'ale Adumim Birkat Moshe Yeshiva. He asked me to write an appendix to a commentary of his on Maimonides. And from then on, I needed some information, like when could the moon be seen? And we didn't have the information at that time, so I started making observations from Israel.

Nehemia: Wow, so let me understand. So, Maimonides, for those who don't know, he wrote a book called the “Mishneh Torah,” that's the book you're talking about.

Dr. Hoffman: That's the book.

Nehemia: And within there's a section on the sanctification of the new moon, kiddush hakhodesh, and the Rabbi that you deal with, he wrote a commentary on the section of the sanctification of the new moon, that’s what you’re saying?

Dr. Hoffman: That's correct.

Nehemia: Okay. Wow, I didn't realize that. There was information you didn't have, so you being a scientist…You're a chemist, is that right?

Dr. Hoffman: I'm a chemist. But being a scientist with an interest in astronomy I started gathering some observations...

Nehemia: Of the new moon.

Dr. Hoffman: That's right, of the new moon and of the waning moon, which is symmetrically the same.

Nehemia: And that's what's called today the “old moon,” is that right?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, it's the waning moon.

Nehemia: The waning moon, okay.

Dr. Hoffman: People call it the “old moon” or the “waning crescent moon.”

Nehemia: What is the new moon? Explain that to the audience, from an Orthodox Jewish perspective.

Dr. Hoffman: Let's explain it from the English perspective. What does "new moon" mean? There's a difference of opinion. If you look in the translation of the Bible, you'll find that "new moon" refers to the young crescent moon about a day after its first visibility. I mean, you can look. “And Jonathan's said to him...”

Nehemia: To David, yeah. That's in 1 Samuel:20.

Dr. Hoffman: Read the text. Jonathan said to him, not to David. “Jonathan said to him, ‘Tomorrow is the new moon.’” That refers to the waxing crescent moon. According to the International Astronomical Union, the new moon is when there's no moon at all and it’s directly between us and the sun.

Nehemia: So, would you say this is a dispute between the book of Samuel and the Astronomical Society?

Dr. Hoffman: It's between the Queen's English and her Astronomical Society, you could say.

Nehemia: Okay. Oh, I see. Oh, even within the English, you’re saying.

Dr. Hoffman: As far as we're talking about the new moon, in this case it’s the young crescent moon.

Nehemia: The young crescent moon.

Dr. Hoffman: But an astronomer might...

Nehemia: He might have a different definition of it.

Dr. Hoffman: Right.

Nehemia: But for Orthodox Jews, and Orthodox Jewish history and Halakha, or law, it refers to the young crescent moon.

Dr. Hoffman: We're talking about the young crescent moon, we're talking about rosh khodesh.

Nehemia: Rosh Khodesh, which is the beginning of the Hebrew month.

Dr. Hoffman: The beginning of the Hebrew month.

Nehemia: Okay. So, you wanted to collect information on when the new moon would be visible for this commentary on what Maimonides taught about the new month.

Dr. Hoffman: That is correct.

Nehemia: All right. So, you said you started doing this in 1988? Wow.

Dr. Hoffman: 1998.

Nehemia: Oh, 1998, okay. Wow, that's a long time ago.

Dr. Hoffman: It is. Since then, at the time when this was published, we had about 100 or 200 observations, and we now have close to 3,000.

Nehemia: Now, are those 3,000 observations from the land of Israel? Or what percentage is from Israel, or around here?

Dr. Hoffman: The observations I've collected, I think the majority are from Israel.

Nehemia: Okay, so the majority is more than 1,500, right? Or maybe a lot more than that.

Dr. Hoffman: That would be correct.

Nehemia: Wow, okay. Let's back up. Why was this Rabbi from Ma'ale Adumim and Maimonides in the 12th century, why in the first place were they interested, and you today, in the sighting of the new moon?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, starting with Maimonides, he published a description of the calculated calendar, and then went into detail of how it was observed in the past. And the calendar was based on the observation. But he states in his work that this is a basic law that comes from Moses, that when there is a Sanhedrin, we do it according to observation. And when there is no Sanhedrin, such as today, then we do it according to this calculation.

Nehemia: Very interesting. And that phraseology you just used, “a basic law from Moses,” what does that mean? Is that halakha le'Moshe mi'Sinai?

Dr. Hoffman: That is halakha le'Moshe mi'Sinai, which means it's a rabbinic ordinance but of a higher level than a normal rabbinic ordinance. It doesn't really come from Moses at Sinai. But it's a very high level of rabbinic ordinance, which we do not know where it comes from, it’s that far back.

Nehemia: But the understanding is that when there's a Sanhedrin, according to the Orthodox Jews, it has to be based on the sighting of the young crescent moon.

Dr. Hoffman: That is his understanding.

Nehemia: That's Maimonides’ understanding.

Dr. Hoffman: Almost all the authorities agree with him. But I should point out, he then goes on to give a description of how to predict when the moon will be visible in order to check whether the witnesses are telling the truth. A Sanhedrin that existed would have to know how to calculate whether the moon can be visible or not. And the Sanhedrin, as you know, was disbanded some 1,600 years ago. But the general Orthodox Jewish opinion is that at some time between now and the coming of Messiah we will have a new Sanhedrin.

Nehemia: Before the coming of Messiah.

Dr. Hoffman: It could be before, or it could be at the same time.

Nehemia: Okay. But when the Sanhedrin is re-established, is what you're saying, then Orthodox Jews maintain that then they'll return to sighting the new moon.

Dr. Hoffman: Then we maintain that the Sanhedrin will fix the calendar themselves. Almost all of the opinions, there's one dissenting opinion, I believe that they'll do it according to sightings with perhaps some slight changes according to convenience. But pretty much according to the sightings.

Nehemia: Okay, very interesting. And that's what you understand was done up until the Sanhedrin was disbanded?

Dr. Hoffman: That is correct.

Nehemia: Okay. And so, just explain briefly for the audience, the calendar used today by Orthodox Jews... In other words, you go and you sight the new moon, but you don't actually keep the feasts and the Jewish holidays based on that. You do it based on this calculated calendar. Tell us about what that calendar is.

Dr. Hoffman: This calendar was instituted sometime in the 4th century. Most people ascribe it to someone called Hillel the Younger. There are some disagreements as to who really set it up and exactly what form it took between then and the 10th century. But the form we have today is based on the time of the conjunction, the molad or no moon in the month of Tishrei, which is the first month of the Jewish year.

Nehemia: And that's what's called the seventh month.

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, but that's another complication, I'll get to that in a minute.

Nehemia: Just so we understand.

Dr. Hoffman: It's actually the first month of the year, but it's the seventh month in the calendar.

Nehemia: And that's when Rosh HaShanah

Dr. Hoffman: Rosh HaShana

Nehemia: Or what I call Yom Tru'a.

Dr. Hoffman: What you call “Yom Tru’a.

Nehemia: Okay, and what they know in English as “Day of Trumpets” or “Day of Shouting.”

Dr. Hoffman: Or the New Year.

Nehemia: Or the New Year, okay. Right, Rosh Hashanah is New Year. So, you calculate the new year, the Rosh HaShanah or Yom Tru'a, and that's based on conjunction.

Dr. Hoffman: And from there you calculate what the rest of the calendar will be for the year.

Nehemia: Okay, I see. So, that's really the only one you calculate, and the rest are based on some fixed...

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah. The reason that it's made relatively simple, so simple that Maimonides says that a school child can calculate it in a few hours, it's made that simple so that people wouldn't make mistakes and therefore there’d be divergence of calendars, whilst being as simple but not too simple to approximate the sighting calendar. It's not designed to be exactly the same because that would be too complicated to calculate.

Nehemia: Okay. So basically, while the Sanhedrin was disbanded, this is a system that approximates the cycles and gets close. But it's not going to get too close because then it will be overly cumbersome for, you know, let's say somebody who didn't have Arabic numerals, who was calculating 1,000 years ago in a village somewhere without a computer. Is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Hoffman: That's exactly it. You can do this with pencil and paper in a short time, but to make it more complicated would mean that there would be room for errors and people would have diverse calendars, and we'd lose the unity of the Jewish people.

Nehemia: So, the focus of this calendar if I'm understanding, is unity. That everyone's doing it on the same day within the Orthodox Jewish world. Which admittedly, at the time it was established was probably most of the Jewish world, or maybe the entire Jewish world. And there's this uniformity of observance, is that...?

Dr. Hoffman: That's correct. And if it was the 4th century, then that was the whole Jewish world until the formation of Karaism which came with...

Nehemia: That's a different discussion, but yeah.

Dr. Hoffman: And that's the basic difference between Orthodox Judaism and Karaism. They took on their own calendar.

Nehemia: Well, let's not have that discussion. I have a different understanding of that. The audience has heard me talk about Karaite Judaism before. Today, we're here to talk about the Orthodox understanding of the biblical calendar, or the Jewish calendar.

I love this passage in the Mishna, I think it's in the Mishna of Rosh HaShanah. And it talks about if all of Israel including the Beit Din, the court, they sighted the new moon but the Beit Din, the rabbinical court didn't proclaim it to be so, meaning they didn't say, “Mekudash mekudash mekudash,” then you postpone it until the next day, right?

Dr. Hoffman: Right. That is correct, and you're right about masekhet Rosh HaShanah. It's talking about the fact that the court is the one that makes the final decision for everyone.

Nehemia: Even if everybody sees it, it's the court that rules it to be so. Is that correct?

Dr. Hoffman: That is correct, because it states in... I think it's in chapter 23 of Leviticus. Three times it states the word...

Nehemia:Atem, atem, atem.”

Dr. Hoffman: “Atem, atem, atem.” “You, you, you.” That means that even if you make a mistake, even if you're misled, even if you do it deliberately, the calendar is the one that you set.

Nehemia: That you decide. And that's in the Gemara of Rosh HaShanah, isn't it?

Dr. Hoffman: That’s in the Gemara, yes.

Nehemia: And part of that is also, I think, in the Mishna. People can look that up online. You can look up the tractate of Rosh HaShanah and read about that, it's a very interesting discussion there. And maybe from my perspective, that's the big difference, whether it's the authority of the Sanhedrin... And actually, the Beit Din wasn't the Sanhedrin, actually. Wasn't it a subset of the Sanhedrin?

Dr. Hoffman: Okay. The Sanhedrin appointed a Beit Din for this purpose.

Nehemia: A rabbinical court, of how many members?

Dr. Hoffman: Of three members.

Nehemia: Okay. So, this was a Beit Din acting on the authority of the Sanhedrin.

Dr. Hoffman: Usually, members of the Sanhedrin.

Nehemia: Members of the Sanhedrin, but again, not just any members who decided...

Dr. Hoffman: Right, we're not just talking about any Sanhedrin. We're talking about the big Sanhedrin with 71 members.

Nehemia: Tell us what the Sanhedrin is, because I'm sure some of my listeners don't know.

Dr. Hoffman: Okay, well the Jewish legal system in the past was based on one main court of 71 members called the “big Sanhedrin.” In each city, there would be a smaller Sanhedrin of 23 members who would be able to try capital cases, and things like that. And then, there will be small law courts, batei din of three members, which would try the simple monetary cases, and all sorts of other things. The big Sanhedrin would have authority for very special cases, and for making general decisions for the whole of the people of Israel.

Nehemia: Okay, and that big Sanhedrin, that was the one that appointed the new moon court.

Dr. Hoffman: That's correct.

Nehemia: And, again, up until it was disbanded, I guess by the Romans is the understanding, that was how it was observed.

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah, the Romans tried to disband it and in the end they succeeded.

Nehemia: That might be an interesting discussion in itself, about how the Romans went through that process.

Now, one of the things you've done with your background in science, is you created a really powerful piece of software called “LunaCal,” which can calculate predictions of when you expect the new moon to be sighted. Is that right?

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, it does that.

Nehemia: Can you talk about that, please?

Dr. Hoffman: Yes. I found when we were starting it was taking me a couple of hours to calculate a light curve. I remember, there was this engineer that showed me how he did a light curve to show how the contrast changed between the moon and the background. And judging by a cutoff point, he could figure out when the moon could be seen or not.

Nehemia: Wow, and just for the listeners, when the new moon is visible is shortly after sunset, the moon is still up in the sky, and as the sun sets more...

Dr. Hoffman: What many people do not understand is that the new moon, as we look for it, rises shortly after the sun, in the morning.

Nehemia: It comes out all day.

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah, it's out all day, but it's too faint to see, because the sky is too bright. As the sun goes down, the sky gets darker, and then the moon appears. As the moon gets close to the horizon, the atmosphere absorbs a lot of light, and then it disappears. So, it might be only visible for a few minutes. It normally is only a few minutes. So, that little part, we have to find.

Nehemia: And so, what you're looking for is the contrast between the sliver of the moon and the still light horizon.

Dr. Hoffman: Right, which is changing all the time.

Nehemia: So, you are calculating this light curve...

Dr. Hoffman: Normally, even today, it's not been very successful to calculate it by using photometric measurements.

Nehemia: What's that in English?

Dr. Hoffman: Photometric is English.

Nehemia: Well, for the lay listener who's not a scientist.

Dr. Hoffman: Photometry is the study of light intensity. By measuring the amount of light that's coming from various places, from the moon or from the sky, you can calculate what the contrast could be. However, this is changing so fast and variable with the weather conditions, that it didn't really try. There was someone called Schaefer who published a few papers on it. It never really took off, because for a lot of things it does work, but for the crescent moon it's very hard to get it right. So, normally we use two simple geometric parameters. As far back as the Babylonians and the Persians, they've been doing that.

Nehemia: And that's alt and az?

Dr. Hoffman: That's one example, the altitude difference and the difference in azimuth is one example. Maimonides uses the ecliptic elongation and the lag time.

Nehemia: So, these are different ways of this.

Dr. Hoffman: And modern scientists would come up with all sorts of things.

Nehemia: So, these are different parameters where you can look at a bunch of previous sightings and look at a new sighting and give some kind of a good guess whether it'll be visible or not.

Dr. Hoffman: Right, and it's done by having a parameter that represents the brightness of the moon, like, as you said, DAZ probably, and the alt would be like the darkness of the sky. It represents the darkness of the sky.

Nehemia: So, what does LunaCal do? The program you created.

Dr. Hoffman: It takes these parameters and calculates when the moon is most likely to be visible. It can say where the cutoff point is likely to be, what time it's visible, what time it's gonna disappear, and draw a graph of where the moon will appear relative to the sun.

Nehemia: And this is a program that actually anybody can download from Israeli New Moon Society website, right?

Dr. Hoffman: Right.

Nehemia: Excellent. Do they need a special computer for this?

Dr. Hoffman: I think it's compatible with any PC, at least up to Windows 7. I think on Windows 8 it also works.

Nehemia: Wow, very cool. And this is a program that you’ve created, really, for your own purposes and now anybody can use it.

Dr. Hoffman: I created it for the purposes of research into the moon and gave it to people to use, because I also want them to provide me with sightings as well.

Nehemia: And then one of the cool things that I've found in it is you can actually go back in time and look 1,000 years ago or something, and at least get a guess if that was right.

Dr. Hoffman: That was another issue that people were writing about in archeoastronomical papers. They were writing about when moons disappear and reappear. I remember Schaefer himself wrote an article. He's Jewish, apparently…

Nehemia: Is he really?

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah, but he wrote an article about the Christian issue about whether there was an eclipse in the year 30 around the month of Nissan, which you can figure out what the reasonableness is.

Nehemia: That's really interesting. So, a Jewish astronomer wrote a paper about a historical eclipse, and you're saying that there was some question about when exactly in Nissan that was...

Dr. Hoffman: No, when the moon was actually above the horizon or below the horizon. Because if you're talking about thousands of years ago, the rotation of the earth around its axis, the day is actually getting longer as we speak. I mean, a few milliseconds a century. But that makes a difference of a couple of hours back 2,000 years ago. And that you have to factor in, and try and figure out exactly what it is. And that's developing science at the moment.

Nehemia: And look, since you already brought up the issue of archeoastronomy and the 1st century of the Common Era, or Christians call it AD, so just to be clear, in that era, the Jewish calendar was based on the sighting of the new moon. Is that right?

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, that would be.

Nehemia: What kind of calculations did the rabbinical court have back then?

Dr. Hoffman: I would expect them to have had some sort of calculation based on two parameters.

Nehemia: So, they would have had a similar thing, going back even as early as Babylonian time.

Dr. Hoffman: Possibly based on Ptolemy, possibly based on Babylonian calculations.

Nehemia: Or, I think Maimonides suggests vice versa. He suggests that the Greeks learned it from the ancient Israelites, or something?

Dr. Hoffman: It may be.

Nehemia: Who knows, right? It's possible.

Maimonides brings this simple calculation that even a child can understand, but he also brings a very complex calculation.

Dr. Hoffman: That’s the calculation.

Nehemia: Tell us about the complex calculation, which is actually for visibility of the new moon.

Dr. Hoffman: Right, that's actually for visibility. What he takes, as I said earlier, is the ecliptic elongation, how far the moon has traveled away from the sun.

Nehemia: That’s a very complex calculation.

Dr. Hoffman: That’s how bright it is. He calls it the “arc of...”

Nehemia: Arc of light.

Dr. Hoffman: No, the arc of light is something else.

Nehemia: Keshet Reiyar,” and all that.

Dr. Hoffman:Keshet Reiyar,” he calls it, which is actually lag time. It’s actually the lag time divided by four hundred and it’s quoted in degrees.

Nehemia: All right, so you've calculated the sighting of the new moon, and then you went out and sighted it. I still want you to explain why this is significant for the Orthodox Jews, and I think you kind of alluded to it. So, you've built up a database of nearly 3,000 sightings. What do you do with that?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, we are expecting...or at least almost everyone is expecting that the Sanhedrin will come along, a recognized Sanhedrin, and will start accepting eyewitness testimony. However, this Sanhedrin has to be able to tell whether the moon could have been seen or not. If it could not have been seen, then they are not going to accept any testimony. If it could be seen, then they will accept testimony, but they will need to know how the moon would look. They're gonna ask a number of questions like how high was it? How thick was it? What direction did it appear in? Which way was it pointing? All that, they have to know in advance.

Nehemia: So basically, when the Sanhedrin is re-established, and it may it be tomorrow, or when Mashiach comes tomorrow, when that happens in your understanding, then they'll use this basically to check the veracity of the new moon witnesses. In other words, to know if they're lying or not.

Dr. Hoffman: That's right.

Nehemia: And that's not a new thing. In other words, in the Mishna it also talks about using various types of tables and things like that.

Dr. Hoffman: The Mishna talks about asking him the questions, and it mentions that Raban Gamliel had pictures of the moon.

Nehemia: Diagrams or something.

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah, he had pictures of the moon.

Nehemia: Okay, and he would test people and say, “Did it look like this, or look like that?”

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, and in fact, from that the Gemara or the Talmud says that from this we know you're allowed to make pictures and images of things…

Nehemia: For scientific purposes.

Dr. Hoffman: …if it's not for worshipping it.

Nehemia: Oh, very interesting, I didn't know that.

Dr. Hoffman: That's the tradition we have for taking pictures.

Nehemia: Oh, from photographs and things, as long as it’s not being used for worship.

Very interesting. And now, you had made a comment, I think this was in the Chabad magazine in 2,000 or something. Do you remember this? There was a sighting, and I was actually there in Eilat, where people saw the new moon, two days before the rabbinical Rosh HaShanah. There was a group of 10 Karaites, three of them saw it. I was one who did not see it, even though I tried very hard. And based on, I don't know, on that particular observation, but in general you made the comment that if we were living in the time of the Sanhedrin, Rosh Hashanah would have been two days earlier.

Dr. Hoffman: It would have been one day earlier.

Nehemia: It would have been one day earlier, okay.

Dr. Hoffman: Because it was the night before the night of Rosh Hashanah.

Nehemia: When it was sighted.

Dr. Hoffman: It would have been one day.

Nehemia: Okay, but it would have been adjusted based on the actual visibility. And you said, again, according to most opinions, and maybe you can tell us about the divergent opinion, that sounds interesting. But according to most rabbinical Orthodox Jewish opinions, even in the future it's gonna be based on the sighting of the new moon.

Dr. Hoffman: Right. There's one divergent opinion.

Nehemia: And that is?

Dr. Hoffman: And that is that the Sanhedrin will change the calculating calendar but it won't go back to sighting the moon.

Nehemia: Oh, really? Okay. But according to that opinion, was it originally sighted?

Dr. Hoffman: Yes.

Nehemia: Okay, so no one disputes that before...

Dr. Hoffman: Maimonides states it's going to go back to that. Normally, as a general principle in Orthodox Judaism, if there's a single opinion against the most of the other opinions, then the other opinions take precedence.

Nehemia: The majority of opinions.

Dr. Hoffman: If it's a single opinion against everyone else, as it is in this case.

Nehemia: But if I went to the average Orthodox Jew in a synagogue, I don't know, somewhere in America, England or Israel - and I don't know the answer to this - and I asked him, “Will we at some point go back to sighting the new moon?” What would he say?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, 20 years ago most people weren't very aware of this.

Nehemia: They thought they did go by the new moon you mean?

Dr. Hoffman: No, people weren't very involved in the calendar. Since I started at the same time, or just beforehand, there was the Institute of Jewish Astronomical Studies that started at Kerem B’Yavneh. Shai Walter is in charge of that, and he's running courses every year with 30 or 40 students every semester. And they're all learning how to observe the moon, to calculate the moon.

Nehemia: So, you're saying today there's a much greater awareness.

Dr. Hoffman: There's a greater awareness today. Of course, it's not the majority of the population, but there's a much greater awareness. And if we do go back to sighting, there'll be people who’ll know how to start.

Nehemia: From my own experience, my father, of blessed memory, was an Orthodox Rabbi. And I remember when we first visited Israel, I was 10 years old. And he told us, “This time we're going to do something different. We're going to keep one day of the holidays instead of two.” And I said, “Why?” Can you talk about this? Why is it that to this day, Orthodox Jews in the diaspora keep two days of every holiday, basically, except for Yom Kippur, and I guess Rosh HaShanah is a special category. For those who don’t know, what’s this about?

Dr. Hoffman: The original reason was that once the Sanhedrin had fixed the calendar, they sent out messengers to the rest of the world. It took up to 14 days to get to Babylon. And for that reason, they didn't know what day the yom tov was going to be.

Nehemia: The holidays.

Dr. Hoffman: This is for Sukkot, for Pesach.

Nehemia: And for Shavuot, I guess.

Dr. Hoffman: No, not exactly, because Pesach or Passover, you count 50 days and you get to Shavuot or “Pentecost,” whatever you want to call it.

Nehemia: Shavuot, okay. The Feast of Weeks.

Dr. Hoffman: So, there was no need to keep a second day, but the Rabbis said, “Because you're keeping the second day for the others, we're making a special rabbinic ordinance to keep the second day for Shavuot.”

Nehemia: I see.

Dr. Hoffman: Now, Rosh HaShanah is a special case, because on the day you have to decide, and anyone outside Jerusalem would not know, because people do not travel on Yom Tov.

Nehemia: So, give us a scenario. We’re gonna go back in time to the year 30 BC.

Dr. Hoffman: I have to explain, there's another thing. As soon as they went to the calculated calendar, all this fell down.

Nehemia: So, why did they keep doing it?

Dr. Hoffman: The Rabbis made an ordinance that you keep doing what your fathers did, and that is why people outside Israel are keeping two days’ Yom Tov.

Nehemia: Two days of every holiday.

Dr. Hoffman: Two days of most of the holidays.

Nehemia: Right, and in Israel they keep one day.

Dr. Hoffman: Except for Rosh HaShanah, because everywhere didn't know when it was.

Nehemia: So, give us a scenario. We're in the year 30 BCE at the time of Shammai and Hillel. I'm a farmer, I'm out on a hilltop doing something in my field. And it's the month of Nissan, the first month of the year. Of course, not to dispute the whole issue of Rosh HaShanah, but the month that even Rabbis call “hakhodesh harishon,” the first month.

Dr. Hoffman: Firstly, let's make it clear. In Orthodox Judaism, the first month is Nissan. It says it's the new year for kings, it's the new year that's used for counting in Nevi'im, the Prophets. It's the first year for the Aviv, but it's not the New Year for the numbering of the years, which came later.

Nehemia: Okay, which is the seventh month is the New Year

Dr. Hoffman: Which is the seventh month but we call it Rosh HaShanah.

Nehemia: So, it's 30 BCE, and I sighted the new moon from a hilltop in Lod. What do I do?

Dr. Hoffman: You’d get on a donkey and go to Jerusalem.

Nehemia: And what happens in Jerusalem?

Dr. Hoffman: There's a story in the Mishna that explains what happens. You went to a place called “Beit Ya'azek.” It's a big square where they would give you hospitality, food and whatnot.

Nehemia: Jews love food, free food.

Dr. Hoffman: A lot of our festivals are based on food.

Nehemia: Okay, so I go to Beit Ya'azek. Is that at the Temple?

Dr. Hoffman: No, it's in Jerusalem, it’s nearby. I don't know where it is today. It hasn’t been identified as far as I know. They went to Beit Ya'azek, and from there they would be called into the Beit Din of the Sanhedrin.

Nehemia: So, that’s the court of three members from the Sanhedrin.

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, the court of three members from the Sanhedrin. They'd be called in pairs of witnesses, one at a time, so they couldn't hear the other one's testimony beforehand. And as soon as they found the pair that had given the evidence, they'd ask the other ones in quickly to give quick evidence, and then they’d declare the month.

Nehemia: And how would they do that? What would they do?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, they’d basically ask each witness the set of questions that I mentioned earlier, “How high, how thick, how far.”

Nehemia: But once they make the decision, there's a ritual described.

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, they'd stand up and say, “It is sanctified” three times, “Mekudash, mekudash, mekudash.”

Nehemia: And then what do they do after that?

Dr. Hoffman: That's the end of the ceremony.

Nehemia: But you mentioned about messengers and signal fires.

Dr. Hoffman: Then they would have to send out the information.

Nehemia: They sent an email? What did they do 30 BC?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, in 30 BC they would light fires until someone else started lighting fires to keep away the Boethusians, which was some breakaway sect somewhere. Either they were doing it deliberately to confuse, or they were doing it according to their own calendar.

Nehemia: Right, that's a whole discussion.

Dr. Hoffman: There's a discussion as to why. As I say, it was a discussion. So then they started sending out messengers.

Nehemia: At first there were signal fires, and the signal fire would go from hilltop to hilltop. And then at some point, they replaced that with actual messengers who would go as far as Babylon.

Dr. Hoffman: Right.

Nehemia: Wow, all right.

Dr. Hoffman: That’s right.

Nehemia: And so, in the future, when the Messiah is sitting on the throne of Israel, is that a fair description according to your understanding?

Dr. Hoffman: Yes.

Nehemia: The Messiah ben David, he’s sitting on the throne, and what happens then? So, then I’m sitting on my porch in…

Dr. Hoffman: Well, we've seen already that fires can be used, messengers can be used. So, what you're doing today in your community is sending everybody an email, and Facebook is quite prominent now.

Nehemia: Will there be Facebook when the Sanhedrin is re-established?

Dr. Hoffman: I don't know how long Facebook's gonna last, but hopefully there's some form of communication. It depends how soon it is. If it’s soon, it will be the same as we’ve got today.

Nehemia: Will we be able to use those transporter devices from Star Trek? Maybe, who knows, right? But basically, I'll sight the new moon in my rooftop in Haifa, and then I'll get in a car, or a helicopter, or one of those flying cars that they'll have then. And I'll come and I'll testify before the Sanhedrin.

Dr. Hoffman: That's right.

Nehemia: Now, I know there's an organization today that is referred to as a “Sanhedrin.” Is that recognized in Orthodoxy? And I know the answer, but I want you to explain your position on that.

Dr. Hoffman: I’ll explain. They claim that they are the Sanhedrin, based on what Maimonides says in his laws of how to renew the ordination. But every argument they’ve used is very much on the edge of how to get it to work. No major authority has recognized them.

Nehemia: In the Orthodox Jewish world, no major authority recognized this.

Dr. Hoffman: But very few authorities have actually said they have not recognized them. So basically, they've been ignored by the majority, which means that the option is open for them to change their mind.

Nehemia: You mean the authorities.

Dr. Hoffman: The authorities.

Nehemia: So today, do they claim that...?

Dr. Hoffman: They claim that. They've even done reconstructions of the testimony.

Nehemia: But they don't claim, “We've received witnesses. You guys are wrong, Rosh HaShanah is two days earlier.” They don't do that, do they?

Dr. Hoffman: They actually did something they didn't claim was a reconstruction. On the day when the observed calendar matched the calculated calendar, they actually took testimony and declared the rosh khodesh.

Nehemia: But they haven't been saying, “Mekudash mekudash mekudash.”

Dr. Hoffman: On that day, they did.

Nehemia: But when it's a date different than the Orthodox Jewish calendar, they would be able to do that.

Dr. Hoffman: They haven't done that. I hope they won't try that, because that could cause a breach within the unity that we've been hoping to upkeep.

Nehemia: And that's really important for you as an Orthodox Jew, that there's complete unity of when it's observed.

Dr. Hoffman: It's very important for Orthodox Judaism that there'll be unity in the calendar.

Nehemia: Particularly in the calendar, maybe more than other issues?

Dr. Hoffman: The thing is, the calendar governs at least a 10th of the all the commandments in the Torah. When are all the festivals? What you do on the festivals? It’s all determined…

Nehemia: So, out of 613 commandments, it's somewhere around 60, give or take, commandments that are based on the calendar?

Dr. Hoffman: That is correct.

Nehemia: Very interesting. Well, I should just say for the record, I really appreciate first of all, you taking your time to talk to me. But I also appreciate in rabbinical Judaism, in Orthodox Judaism, that there is this recognition of, this is what was done in ancient times. This is what will be done in the future. And the reason we're doing this today is for the purposes of unity. And of course, there's the concept of the authority of the Rabbis, but definitely there isn't an attempt, and I appreciate this, there isn't an attempt to redefine what was done 2,000 years ago retroactively, based on what's done today.

Dr. Hoffman: No, what we're doing today is not seen as the ideal situation when we have a Sanhedrin.

Nehemia: Right, so I really appreciate that about the Orthodox approach. Wonderful. Is there anything else you want to share with the audience? Any other thoughts?

Dr. Hoffman: Well, I can say about the research that we've been doing.

Nehemia: Yeah, let's hear about that.

Dr. Hoffman: The New Moon Society was set up in order to gather data from an Orthodox Jewish point of view, but in order to gather information for scientific research, with the wish that in future it will be applied, but in the meantime, anyone’s allowed to be part of it. Anyone's allowed to provide information, and that information has good scientific value, which can be used in order to predict the visibility of the moon in the future.

Nehemia: Okay, and we talked about this before, that there's sort of a statement in the announcements that people from various groups are welcome to participate. Is that right?

Dr. Hoffman: That's right, because we really are not trying to preach to anyone a religion. The society itself is not preaching religion, it's just doing a scientific study.

Nehemia: Okay, and basically, would you say that you're gathering astronomical data and astronomical truth, and the point isn't to impose a halakhic view on someone?

Dr. Hoffman: That's the purpose of the society.

Nehemia: Excellent. Okay, I understand. And for those who don't know, halakhic, how would you define halakhic?

Dr. Hoffman: Jewish law.

Nehemia: Jewish law. So, the point isn't to say, “This is when to keep the festival, or this is when to keep the feast.” The point is to say, “Astronomically, this is when it was visible or should be visible.”

Dr. Hoffman: Okay. The purpose of the society is to say when the moon may be visible, not may be visible, to learn if it was seen or not seen. It is not there to preach.

Nehemia: Okay. And again, when the Sanhedrin is re-established, you'll be able to turn all of that information over. Now 3000 sightings. Hopefully, by the time the Sanhedrin comes it'll only be 3,001, because it'll be soon.

Dr. Hoffman: Yeah, hopefully soon.

Nehemia: And that's probably something I think we can agree on, that we're looking forward for the coming of the Mashiakh, bimhera beyamenu, we say, “Quickly in our days.”

Dr. Hoffman: Yes, Amen.

Nehemia: Amen. All right, well, thank you very much.

Dr. Hoffman: Thank you.

Nehemia: This week's episode of Hebrew voices was sponsored by an anonymous person in California. Thank you, toda.

You have been listening to Hebrew Voices with Nehemia Gordon. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon’s Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

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Show Notes:

Dr. Roy Hoffman was born in 1963 in London, UK. As a child, he had a strong interest in science and technology and benefited from the beginnings of the microcomputer revolution. He went on to study Chemistry at University and because of his attraction to mathematics and computing went into physical chemistry for his PhD. Seeking to experience a more spiritual relationship with his faith, he applied for work in Israel, and accepted a post-doc position at Hebrew University. He is the founder of the Israeli New Moon Society. In Jerusalem, he met Channa who became his wife. Today, they have five children: Jonathan, Rina, Akiva, Sarah and Na'ama.

LunaCal Software
http://sites.google.com/site/moonsoc/software

  • Elchabar says:

    Do you think the astronomical or dark moon is when the Hebrew month is supposed to start?

  • trish392016 says:

    My interest always lie in the Jewish custom and understanding do hearing about Dr Roy Hoffman and where he was born outside of Yisrael yet returned there and get marry there now sighted the moon just like the biblical times …this really touch me very deep.

    Thanks to you too Nemehia’ you were recommended to me by Allan Horvath who said you do have full knowledge on biblical truth and I find that out to be so my self as I had always been listening to you

  • Rocky Jackson says:

    OK what or where am I missing ( atem) atem atem in Leviticus 23?

    I can’t find it three times let along once!

    Was it simply misquoted ?

    • Actually it says Otam, but the raabis interpret it as Atem 3 times using their Midrashic prerogative. I talk about this in my book “Shattering the Conspiracy of Silence”. It’s actually quite important for understanding the history of the vowels.

  • Mary says:

    Great interview-stayed on topic-and got to the roots without rabbit holes!
    Thank you!

  • One question do shabbats are according to the moon cycles? My husband and I keep the shabbats this way, are going to be this week on Thursday? We have studied for the last 6 years that are according to the moon cycles Psalms 104:19

    • Dori says:

      There are very few who follow the lunar calendar, with determining the Shabbats by the moon. I do not believe Nehemia is in agreement with the whole concept. Like you we have been noticing that the moon does change its phases every 7 days. As to your question as far as the U.S., our 1st quarter moon ? was seen in yesterday’s sky pointing to today, Friday, as the 7th day AFTER our new moon day sighting. Next Friday will be ?, then ?, then ?…

    • Mitzi says:

      During the wondering of the children of Israel in the wilderness, they were taught by manna which day was the Sabbath. In the scriptures there is no mention of the moon, only every 7th day. This 7 day cycle was unbroken as recorded in Exodus for the 10 commandments. Also, when counting 50 for Pentecost, you count 7 Sabbath’s. These are clearly 49 days in a row, which cannot be supported by any lunar cycle. You have these 2 Biblical witnesses that refute Sabbaths following a lunar cycle.

  • Geoff Robinson says:

    Nehemia,
    That was a great interview on a good topic. Thanks for letting Dr. Roy Hoffman share the history and essentials so well. I appreciate how you do your interviews. I think it is wonderful that you wanted him to share his opinion, not just the parts that agree with your position. I missed a couple of your first interviews of this series, but I look forward to going back and listen to the ones I missed.
    Geoff
    (Fort Collins, CO USA)

  • Ferdinand Blom says:

    Nice interview Nehemia. I enjoyed picking up some new historical details.

  • Michael says:

    Appreciate you being led Nehemia to interview this person. Such great information and a heavy topic that is needed for the life of a TorahWalker. Keep them coming may Yehovah bless you this day.

  • Our hearts leaps for great joy for hearing such! The New Moon observations coming more open and public in Israel within the Orthodox Jews as well in addition to the Karaites and Messianic / Hebrew Roots believers. HalleluYeHoVah! Shabbat Shalom from Finland…

  • Achi, WOW I give you much credit for being able to hold your tongue. So much info. gives me a headache ! I wish we could watch your discussion with Rav. Hoffman it is very interesting to something that really is an important topic, as a meshichi it excites me to hear that the orthodox are expecting Moshiach to come soon as you are also. And you know what I believe I guess, as the joke goes, we’ll have to ask Him if it’s His 1st time or has He been here before. lol ! Excellent work Achi. Until we hear “Baruch ha ba B’shem Yehova” take care and Shalom, Shalom !!!

  • Shawn Lichaa says:

    Nehemia, this was wonderful.

  • Dori says:

    Interesting talk, but how were they able to decide the new moon during Moses time? We are in California and we have observed that some months we are ahead of Israel and sometimes behind. Studying the moon has become quite fascinating.

    • Shawn Lichaa says:

      Hi Dori,

      In the Rabbinic Tradition it is absolutely necessary for the new moon to be the new moon of Israel.

      It is entirely possible for the new moon to be seen at a different time than the moon in Israel. (It should always be the case, as I understand it, that if the moon is seen in Israel it will necessarily be seen in CA – atmosphere permitting.)

      BTW, the majority historical Karaite Jewish view is that the local moon matters – not the Israel moon. (I am a Karaite and I myself go back and forth about this issue.)

      I am actually undertaking a study about the moon and the calendar currently.

      • Dori says:

        Thank you for sharing. We have been doing our best to observe (see) the new moon for 3 years. Yes our local time, by the moon, can say we are a day a head of Israel and other moons are a day behind. We were putting the lunar sabbath to the test and find Yehovah’s time clock in the sky amazingly accurate. The moons that are difficult to spot can throw things off, but once the 1st quarter is seen it works like clock work. No way could our culture today observe what was once probably in place. As retirees we enjoy looking up and wondering how our ancestors lived without a printed calendar.